Equity Rising S1 : Episode 7

Incarceration, art, and healing with Sabra Williams; Los Angeles, CA

Here to remind us that art and “the arts” are badly in need of decolonization, Creative Acts’ Executive Director Sabra Williams facilitates creative expression within communities experiencing the effects of incarceration. Her passionate and informed stance on corporate ills and human transformation dovetails with her dedication to using art in both practical and groundbreaking ways. In Sabra’s world, this means that everything from funding, planning, and policy change to casting and directing should be driven not by the status quo systems of white supremacy but by exploration and imagination. And, most importantly, it means centering the hearts and minds of those who have been harmed by poverty, gun violence, and the prison state. “I’ve never seen social justice and the arts as separate,” Sabra tells Trae in this powerful conversation. After hearing this episode, you won’t see them as separate either.

This week’s Chime In features Cashayla Rodgers.

This episode was produced by Linnea Ingalls & Julia Drachman and edited by Josh Berl.

Transcript

Linnea Ingalls  00:04

Hi, my name is Linnea Ingalls and I'm one of the producers for equity rising the podcast from King County equity now, in this episode, our host Trae is in conversation with Sabra Williams, the executive director of Creative Acts in organization in Los Angeles that seeks to transform urgent social justice issues to the revolutionary power of the arts. To heal trauma, build community, raise power, and center the voices of those who are or have been incarcerated. Sabra and Trae dive deep into why arts access and education is not simply an add on to equity. But an integral intertwined component of equity. Sabra beautifully identifies why we must decolonize the arts and how that weaves in with criminal justice reform and our quest for a new normal rooted in equity. Sabra generously gives us her perspective as a European immigrant and world citizen, and speaks on the critical role of ally ship truth and reconciliation and reparations. There's a ton to learn from Savra's story. So enjoy, and thank you for listening to equity rising.

Trae Holiday  01:14

First off, let me just say I am so excited to have you miss Sabra Williams on equity rising. You know, I get excited about these episodes, because I get to learn so much about some really cool people, and so does the audience. And so I'm excited. You know, right here on equity rising, we really like to talk to equity makers across the world, so that we can really connect. So I'm happy to have you on. Thank you again, so much for joining us. Here. 

Sabra Williams  01:41

Happy to be here. 

Trae Holiday  01:42

Absolutely. Well, we have a lot to dive into. So let's get right into it here. I want to hear a little bit about your background. But before I go into it all I got to ask we call it First things first here. And so we got to ask, how are you taking care of yourself?

Sabra Williams  01:59

Well, I feel like I'm taking care of myself by working very hard on an election that we won. And so it's less stressful. And I'm a Buddhist. So I chant twice a day. That's the main way that I take care of myself. I try to eat well, although COVID has made me be doing a lot of baking. But yeah, I mean, I think I it's my my Buddhist practice, that really helps me, I always think of it like a washing machine, you know, you put all the dirty clothes in, and then it washes and it comes out all clean and ready to go again. So yeah, it's my chanting.

Trae Holiday  02:40

I love that. That's a great analogy, too. So thank you for sharing that with us. I like to jump right into it before we even go into intros. Because I think it's so important that so many of us who are really on the front lines and doing this work around equity globally, we need to take care of ourselves, right, this work is going to be here for a long time. And we understand how pivotal it is to the rest of the world. But we definitely have to take care of ourselves in the process. So thank you for sharing that with us. You know, let's get right into your background. I mean, you are the executive director of creative acts. And I want to get right into what creative acts does and the beginning of that for you. Yeah, I guess I would say, you know, I'm a British Russian Romanian Guyanese Caribbean Indian, in a world citizen. And so I think I'm an immigrant. I'm a woman, obviously a woman of color. And I think that all of this informs the work that I do. And so I can tell you that at Creative Arts, our mission is to transform urgent social justice issues, through the revolutionary power of the arts, to heal trauma, to build community to raise power, and to center the voices of people who are or have been incarcerated. So that's kind of like what we live for. The work comes out of my work as an actor and an artist and actor. And when I came here to America to Los Angeles, I joined Tim Robbins Theatre Company, the actors gang, and started a program there called the actors gang prison project, which is based around the European style of theater that they do over there. And together with people who are incarcerated, and with teaching artists, you know, raise that program up from, you know, a little scrappily program with no money that we did for many years into kind of the gold standard of arts and corrections. And then after 30 years, a couple of years ago, I left there to start creative acts. And so creative acts as a deepening and broadening of that work. We use all of the arts. And basically what we do is we're not an organization that teaches people how to become artists. What

Sabra Williams  05:00

As we're trying to create a new path, which is always exciting and difficult, we're trying to create a new path where we use the arts in the process of change. So the outcome, while it isn't a play or a piece of music, but the process is to use the arts to help people change the narrative about themselves and the world and to understand their power and the impact that they have. And so we work inside prison inside children's prisons, adult prisons, in reentry in the community, done quite a lot of this work with policymakers and politicians and corporations and organizations, it's a different way to look at the world and has different outcomes as a result.

Trae Holiday  05:47

I think that's so beautiful. And I think that's so much honestly, when I think about the foundation for equity work, it's so much of it is really about this, right, creating like these innovative solutions, because inherently, a lot of equity wasn't really built into the system. So I think that when you're talking about, you know, these different ways, and finding these different avenues and kind of, you know, side doors or back doors, if you will, almost that really is I think what we're going to be seeing more and more, you know, again, 

Sabra Williams  06:16

I would just say that access to the arts is actually an equity issue. So most of the people 1000s of people I've taught over the last 15 years who are in prison, have all said, If I'd have had this at school, I wouldn't be in prison, because before they come to prison, they're living in communities that are targeted for incarceration, and traumatized communities have to deal with a lot of violence. And so they have real issues, like many people do, trying to be successful in the very, very narrow way we allow children to be successful in school. And so when they have access to the arts, not only are they able to heal, they're able to be successful, you know, they're able to achieve and to become better parents and become prepared to be employed and all the things that we don't normally associate with the arts, but lie in the power of the arts from the tools the arts give them. So it is an essential equity issue or mental health issue.

Trae Holiday  07:10

I agree with you wholeheartedly a true thespian here, myself. So I really do I agree with you. I think that even for myself, when I think back to my childhood, and how you know, theater, and the arts really helped me understand my perspective, kind of in this, you know, other global perspective of the world and how people see you in your local municipality. So I think that's really important. And I think true artists would probably all agree with you in that regard. 

Sabra Williams  07:40

None of my people have become artists, but they all deeply understand the power of the art. 

Trae Holiday  07:45

Yeah, I think I'm so glad that you're actually mentioning it in this way. And what is it about your personal experience or your personal life that had you go from kind of like, you know, acting and understanding how important the arts was, to really allowing that to impact those who are incarcerated.  For me, I would say, I've never seen social justice in the arts to separate indigenous communities and Native American communities and in this country, understand the sacred importance of the arts just to being fully human. And they often view us as shamans, you know, they view the arts as medicine. And so I've always kind of grown up with that understanding my mother, also, she's was an actress, and she's a director. And she's always been very active in social justice, she was a hippie in the 60s. And, you know, she, like, always took me on marches when I was a kid. So for me, there's never been any division. And I think I've really always understood the social responsibility of artists. What I didn't understand is how to make that real, you know, I didn't know how to, I came to this country, and I heard about mass incarceration. And, you know, I was appalled. And still to this day, I often think that can't be right. I must be exaggerating, that number can't be right. You know, there's no way and you know, I'm super naive in that way. And so I think I saw this big thing. And I was like, Well, I'm just one small, black immigrant woman, who's an actor, how can I have any impact on that at all? All I have is my art. So you know, let me make this proposal in prison and see how they respond to it. That's kind of how it started. It was Oh, it's still to this day. It's all an experiment. I always say this is a laboratory. We'll never have like - We'll never be like, oh, now we've got it. Yeah. Now we're there. I love that you use that as it's a great metaphor, because I think so much of our work is a constant, you know, you're you're constantly adjusting to what's needed. And so,

Sabra Williams  09:51

yeah, failing and you have to, you have to be prepared to fail really publicly and really big.

Trae Holiday  09:58

Absolutely. Well, I want to ask You too, because, you know, you're really talking about how impactful arts is just in general. And we know that there is been a long history of arts getting defunded, right in public education spaces. I mean, really like the investment in the arts has been, you know, a real domino effect, I want to ask you, like, how has arts funding kind of played into your role and really building creative acts?

Sabra Williams  10:25

Well, I would say that, you know, since the 1950s, maybe earlier in America, since the WPA, the arts have not been properly funded in this country. And that is, because in this country, we only understand the arts as being for artists, or for entertainment. That's why we don't have the arts and the core of the school day. And so the arts have historically been last in and first out, so part of the responsibility of artists is to change that narrative. And we do that by making sure that we don't make the arts exclusive, you know, that we are really responding to our communities. So that what we've seen, you know, at this time of Black Lives Matter, when a lot of arts organizations that issue Black Lives Matter statements is that their work on their stages, or in front of their cameras, or in their production or on their boards don't look like the communities that they serve. So we will never understand how to make the art central to this culture. Until we decolonize, the arts, the arts are white and male, generally, in this country, and you know very much about making money. So, you know, that's the white supremacy view of what the arts can be. And so basically, my responsibility as an artist is to actually, you know, walk my talk. And that's what we do at creative acts. So we don't just talk about using the arts every day, we also do it. You know, most arts organizations are super corporate, they sit around a table, talking about what they want to do with the arts or discussing a new season. But that could be Unilever, that could be any corporation, they, they all sit around tables, talking about how to change things. as artists, we have to use the arts in the process, we just take the table and throw it out the window. So all of these, you know, our requests for funding, and our demand that people understand the importance of the arts starts with us, are we doing it? Are we just demanding something that we don't understand yet ourselves, and this has been my education over the last 15 years of working in prison with people who are self described non artists, is they've educated me on that. So I think that we have two sides, we have funders who don't understand the importance and the power of the arts and won't fund. You know, let's say it's very hard for us to get funding because we were called a social justice arts organization, which doesn't exist, because they want us to say, Okay, are you missing arts education standards? Well, we're not doing arts education. So no, are you putting out productions? Well, no, we're not a theatre company. So no, you know, and there is no space for this kind of work that is super, super impactful. And so, you know, funders have to change their narrative. And artists, we have to change our narrative. And then the public will support taxpayer money going towards arts programming, especially in the core of the school day. Now, I started - 18 years of frustration.

Trae Holiday  13:44

You're on a roll, though, because honestly, again, I'm just being over here as a true artist, myself, and honestly, it takes me back because as I was a young person, and I was watching them, you know, take one thing after another after another year after year, it was like very incremental while we were in it, right? And, you know, so now being out of it, and realizing like what opportunities are there for my children? It is a stark, vast difference between what was available when I was a student and what's available to them now, and and i think you're absolutely right, in terms of identifying that arts is not just about production of arts, right, or production of an artwork, it literally is that it can be utilized in different forms of life. And so

Sabra Williams  14:32

even what we currently have, like in California, we have education code, you know, in our in our schools, we weren't abiding by the education code for many decades. The education code says you have to have access to arts programming. And our kids weren't even when my son was in high school, which was only a couple of years ago. You know, in his last year, his senior year was the first time that it was mandated that they do an art in order to graduate high school, he went through his whole school life without, he's not an artist. So if you're not an artist, you're not going to choose an art as an elective, you know, and those are the people you need to reach the most. So people who are going to go and work in offices or on building sites, they need to have access to the arts at school, you know, for their mental health, for their humanity, they need to have access. And even in California until a few years ago, we weren't abiding by our own law.

Trae Holiday  15:27

Yeah, you know what, and I think that that's also a part of it, too, because there are certain things that can be put on paper, but the actualization of them is a whole nother thing. And I do think that what we've seen in this country is that in certain regards, it really takes the work of a few to push through a lot of those barriers.

Sabra Williams  15:47

Every single issue every single issue.

Trae Holiday  15:49

Absolutely. And so I want to ask you to because we know you have a book coming out, we want to hear a little bit about this book, and how much of your work, like you said, the last 15 years, you've learned so much, and been educated so much with your work of those who have been incarcerated and really learning from them. It sounds like a great symbiotic relationship here. But I want our audience to hear a little bit about how you're really packing all of that experience, and how you're sharing it in this book,

Sabra Williams  16:15

this book, when will this book ever be finished. So the book is called beauty in the beast, the power of the arts behind bars, I have a literary agent, you know, that whole thing is happening. However, I'm not the conventional writer - that's why I've never written a book before. Secondly, I'm a professional actor, you know, before COVID, I worked a lot as an actor, and I'm running an organization. So I've been trying to write this book for five years. But basically, all I can do is like write it, if I can find a month or two weeks, I like go away somewhere and write it. So probably the total time I've spent in five years is probably like three months writing the book. But we're getting there, I'm getting there. And I think that you know, now creative acts is on its feet. And you know, there's not much acting work happening. You know, I'm hoping over the holidays, I will have time to actually really buckle down on it. The book is about what we're talking about. It's about this trying to put my little drop in the ocean of trying to get Americans to understand the importance of the arts, through the stories and the impact of people who are or were incarcerated. And so what I've seen is during these five years, things have changed so dramatically. And the book is like morphing to honor that. And since the election, you know, just happened, like things are gonna change even more. And I think that we have a real chance now, like with the Obama administration, I did quite a lot of work with the Obama administration about centering the arts in criminal justice reform. And we worked on a bill that was way better than the first step act, but mitch mcconnell blocked it. And then it ended up being the first step act, but to have government understand and the people who are going to be working with this president, or people who are in the Obama administration, so that people I know, and they understand the power of the arts. So I think that the landscape is about change. And so I think the book is going to veer a little bit from what it was and the dictator that we just got rid of. So yes, I mean, I think, you know, there is like, there wasn't the Obama administration and opportunity for real criminal justice reform in LA. And in California, we really are doing that, you know, we just passed a bunch of legislation. For instance, people who are on parole can mount vote for the first time, my brothers and sister activists in LA County, passed a prop that is going to put a lot of funding into, you know, alternatives to incarceration. So these things are starting to happen. And it's getting better than it was. We have the lowest amount of people in state prison in the last 30 years right now because of COVID. But, you know, I still I think that as we go forward, while this book may morph a little bit, the center of it the spine of it is still the importance of the arts, access to the arts for equity, for people who systems impact is period. 

Trae Holiday  19:20

Yeah, period. I mean, I agree. And you know, what, I think that you're absolutely right, when it comes to the ways that maybe this country has understood the arts, it has been very narrow, you know, that the scope in terms of the impacts that the arts really do have on lived experience has not been understood widely. So I love hearing you talk about these trends, in terms of like, understanding that and I got to veer off a little because I want to ask you a little bit about how was it for you to work with the Obama administration on something that was, you know, so monumental and such an epitome of your work? 

Sabra Williams  19:58

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it benefitted of my work. Thank you. And I think that we started working with the Obama administration, through the Department of Justice, because Eric Holder when he was ag over there, he wanted to take a different approach to criminal justice reform. So he was looking for approaches that were unique or creative to try to really have an impact, which is kind of amazing for an attorney general, you know, top cop to think about. And so they reached out to us and asked us to come and have a meeting. And so Tim Robbins, and I went there and met with him and had this. I mean, that administration, there was a lot of things wrong, that always are with every administration, because it's not about them, it's about giving us a landscape to make change. So the landscape they gave activists was very profound and significant. And so we had this amazing meeting with Eric Holder, and his staff, which by the way, were all nearly all people of color, and all women, which people don't know much about that. And then he got on a plane, and he came to LA and he came to prison. First he to do that came to a state prison, and came and saw our guys working in prison during the program. And so he and I have kept relationship over all these years. And he's obviously going to be working with the Biden administration. But then we were introduced to the White House and went to meet with Valerie Jarrett, who was the president's, Senior Advisor President Obama. And she said, you know, what do you want, and I was like, we want the arts to be at every table. When you're making budget, when you're making legislation when you're discussing, you know, policy. artists need to be at all those tables, because we think differently, you know, you'll have different input. And she thought that was cool. She was like, hey, done. What else do you want? And I was like, I don't know who she was like, why don't we do an event here at the White House and the holidays there last year, a year before last? And we'll do about the arts and criminal justice reform. And so we have this amazing event at the White House. And the really unique thing about it was that as we do we use the arts in the event, not just people singing, but the audience contributed by writing poetry. And like there was this, you know, symbiotic exchange, that was very beautiful. And actually what it did is it changed the way the White House did events after that they always included the arts and their events after that, which they hadn't done before. And then, you know, I was asked to so crazy, I was asked to help with the criminal justice reform bill that mitch mcconnell was blocking at the time. And I don't know why I'm just some actor from England. But okay, so I caught a plane and went to the hill and met with john Cornyn people and Paul Ryan's chief of staff, and, you know, obviously, the democrats as well, to discuss how to do it. And it was so fascinating, you know, to see the inside, you know, track of how I'm so I'm such a, you know, politics wonk, I love politics. It's just interesting. And so to have, you know, like them being like, can you get more co sponsors, if you get more co sponsors? I promise, I'll ask, you know, McConnell to take this to the floor. I say, like, I'm an episode of Game of cards right now. How did this happen? But anyway, what happened is that I was able to get the word arts into the bill, because it's a federal bill. So it's not state, obviously. But they were talking about mental health and substance abuse and all these programs that they were going to make, you know, written into law. And I was like, well, you have to include the arts in that. And they were like, Oh, no, no, people love the arts. No, well, there's an understanding that we'll do it. And I'm like, that's how the arts always gets left out. We have to have it in legislation. So the word arts to get into the bill. And then when they made the first step Act, the first thing I did is run and look at the bill, and it's still in there, they must have forgotten, because it's still in there. So I think that, you know, this was, for me, it was such an awakening, because in my country in the UK, you can't just rock up and, you know, partner with the Obama administration, they they're not going to let you into Downing Street or to the House of Lords to just, you know, help write legislation. You know, it's just not like that, because we have a class based society. But here, it just really taught me as an activist, that you really can reach anybody in this country. That's one of the great things about America that you really can have access, and you really can make an impact. So you better be ready, because they're serious when they come and talk to you. You better be ready, you know, because, you know, and also bring people with you that, you know, for me, the only reason that we were at the White House, the Department of Justice on the hill, the single reason why any of that happened is because people who are in prison did the work. They did The difficult work that even us that now we're gonna have to do as a country, we don't want to do all this self reflection and transformation. They did it. They did it in the hardest circumstances. And then not only did they do it in there, they came back and I still get calls, you know, I'm in my office seven years after leaving prison, my bosses drive me crazy, I want to punch him in the face. And I'm using all everything that you taught me so that I don't do that, you know. And then we have people who are literally one step out of prison, they train as teaching artists, and they go back in as teaching artists to train, while they're also working in construction, you know, I mean, it's like, entirely, because of their courage and resilience and persistence, that any of us get to do any of these things.

Trae Holiday  25:45

You know what, I agree with you wholeheartedly there when you really are, you know, connected to the community you're serving, no matter who that community is, you really see the beauty really within that community, right. And so I love that

Sabra Williams  25:59

It's the most joy I get in my life is working, and no one believes it. But it is because we, you know, one of the things that I really tried to instill in myself and in our teaching artists from the beginning was, we're going in as partners, we're not professors, we don't go and fill empty people up with information or help them we're not saviors. This isn't colonization, you know, we go in as partners, here, we have a proposal, they take the proposal, they make it better, they tell us where it's not good, and they help make it better, you know, like that real kind of give and take over the last 15 years. That's it. That's like, that is joy.

Trae Holiday  26:38

You know, this is why what I say so much of this work is so relational, I think that you're right in that regard, that that that's when you bring the most out of any situation is really when it's not trying to look at it as a transactional thing. And really, that that kind of relationship, I love how you just said alongside them, I feel the same way in terms of community work here. So much of it needs to be centered on community voice and making sure that particularly community members are at the center of this, right, and not the least, like we're just here to make sure that this is being amplified. 

Sabra Williams  27:12

To like make the path for them that my organization will be run by somebody who's formerly incarcerated in five years, you know, they're like we send to them. I'm like, trying to do the, you know, use my privilege and my platform to create a path for them. So it's smoother for them when they come and they run this organization. 

Trae Holiday  27:30

Yeah, yeah, I love that.  And now it's time for the chime in. In this segment, we bring in voices from our community to see what they have to say.

Cashayla Rodgers  27:40

My name is Cashayla Rodgers, I'm a youth organizer with King County equity now, as well as with Africa town. For me, reparations will look like land. And space, black folks need their 40 acres and a mule, they need to be able to control what happens on the land. They need to be able to create businesses create homes, we need to be able to self sustain and self govern completely autonomous land in the form of reparations, and we need white folks to pay the fee. And now

Trae Holiday  28:15

back to the show. And you know, you you mentioned something to that I think is so important. Because your perspective is different because you're an immigrant. And I have to ask you about this. I mean, specifically, we've seen so much in the last four years in this country with regard to this kind of American nationalism and how it can kind of sway on both sides, right? I mean, there's this beautiful piece of it, like, you know, hey, we want America to be that beacon that it claims to be right? How do we make it so so a lot of folks on the ground are saying that same thing, right? And then you have those who are like, hey, it was never that let's actually bring it back to reality. So I'm going to ask you a little bit about the intersection between, you know, you understanding life outside of America, right, not being a born American and, and how that really inspired and affected your work? Yeah, I

Sabra Williams  29:03

mean, it's To me, it's the same as you would be in my country, right? When you born and brought up some of you can't see your own culture, clearly. So that's a gift to me, as an immigrant here, you know, is that I have a different eye on this culture, especially being European as we used to be in the UK. You know, like, I I always identified more as a European and as just a British person. And, you know, that kind of European culture festival really deeply understands the arts and centers, the arts. And, you know, secondly, actually understands what socialism and communism are, and the difference between them, and that most countries, including America are socialist countries. This is also a socialist country, probably in a different way than in Europe, but you know, it is also socialist. And so people hate that I'm gonna get a lot of lessons and comments about because you don't understand what is it's not communism. And so I think that, you know what I was able to see, when I came to this country, one of the things I do a lot is I always ask why I drove my teachers crazy. And now my parents, but now, I do it internally. I'm asking myself, you know, why is this like this? Why is America like this? And there's the obvious things like American exceptionalism. There's the crazy thing of America being number one, news, America, no other country is in that competition, that competition does not exist. There is no number one country is just a different country doing the best it can. So there's that which is, you know, damaging. And then, you know, the fact that until a few years ago, less than 20% of Americans had passports, so people aren't traveling, so they don't have any other experience apart from America. And that's extremely damaging. You don't learn about anything about world history, or World Geography in state schools till 10th grade 10th grade, that's shocking to me, because by then the indoctrination is very, very deep. You know, America, first America, the great all that stuff. And then you don't have any decent access to World News. Where do you get good? Well, I mean, I know where because I'm from a you know, so I like have different access, I'm grown up with World News. But when you don't have the, when all of those things are there, no travel or, you know, not many people traveling, very, very, very indoctrinated education, this crazy thing about number one American and one American exceptionalism, no world news that is rife for somebody like Trump to come in, and to play on all of that. And you know, the bogeyman, that is the other and no, I'm proud to be a world citizen. And here, that's considered something terrible, you know, like, the world order, or whatever. So I think that as an immigrant, being able to see those things more clearly, because it's not my country. And then the other side of it is, you know, hearing what America thinks it is, you know, home of the brave land of the free all of that stuff. And understanding that it has never been that. But what if it could be that, and the only way that it's going to be what it says it is, and has never been, is to go through a process, a process that is truth and reconciliation, in essence, but the hard bit about that everyone loves the reconciliation, part or transformation part. But nobody likes the truth part. And the truth part, you cannot have the good bit without going through, you have to go through the truth bit. And so the truth part is where immigrants get to step up is where people who are incarcerated get to step up is where bipoc, folks get to step up, where especially Native American people and black people, because we have an indigenous genocide that has never been accepted or acknowledged. And we have never dealt with slavery. So we have all the tools to do the truth bit. But that would require the people who have the power and the advantage to first of all, understand that and secondly, let it happen, which will mean giving up some power and being prepared to self reflect and when people are in power, they don't have to or want to self reflect. So all of this is kind of you know, I know that as an immigrant, no Americans, I am an American, by the way, but no born American is going to want to hear my crap and you know, to this process, so I'm working, you know, with politicians with Congresswoman Barbara Lee, staff with Congresswoman Sheila Jackson, Lisa, for on bills that they already have one's reparations bill, Sheila Jackson Lee's and the other Barbara Lee's is a truth and racial transformation and healing bill. Because I know that you know, I was I really want this to happen again. This is my chanting, chanting, you know, as a Buddhist that I really since I came here, 18 years ago, I've really wanted a truth and reconciliation process here. But who am I to do it? How can I do it? And then I heard about these bills and was invited into be part of that group. So yeah, well,

Trae Holiday  34:19

yeah, well, no, you just got right to my next question, because I was gonna get right into it. I mean, so much of what you described, literally, and it really is such a natural progression. Shout out to our producer, Linnea because she had it on point in terms of my bullet points. But I'll say this that exactly what you just described in terms of your perspective coming from, you know, the UK and understanding the American culture from you know, this outside perspective really.

Sabra Williams  34:45

I do have to just also say growing up in the country that invented colonization, and you know, and white supremacy so let's not forget that it's not like British people are all great and America is all bad. We invented it for you.

Trae Holiday  35:01

We know and that's why I wanted to talk about it in terms of colonialism, right? For someone like you who has that understanding, and coming from the UK, I think it's important that we address it just as exactly what it is right? And, and so many Americans right now, I think are really being re educated, right? They're waking up to the fact that, hey, what I was taught about my country isn't really the truth. And yeah, maybe that means I have to do some personal digging to understand how I, you know, debunk a lot of these myths that I believed all my life or whatever. But I think that you're right in terms of this country, recognizing its past harms, and how it's going to move forward to address them. And for me, I'm with you on those chants. because trust me, sister, friend, I am chanting at home with you, because I agree, I have two black sons, right? You were talking about your college student, you you're a mother as well. When you think about the future for next generations, you really want to believe that yes, we can actually have what was propagandized back in America's beginnings, we actually can do that now with the right minds at the table. So I just want to dive a little bit more here, in terms of what are you hoping that these two bills will specifically address to really balance out this equity issue that we've had in this country since its inception?

Sabra Williams  36:27

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you're saying that especially the whole blacklivesmatter uprising, really started to address real history, which is why they're trying to shut it down right now. Like they don't on a federal level, you're not allowed to do what we do at creative acts, we do a lot of anti racism training and DI training. So now they're banning that because they know that real history is starting to emerge, and then very terrified about losing power and money. So yeah, so I mean, I think that these bills, you know, the Sheila Jackson, these bill, hr 40 is the reparations bill, she's been working on that for 40 years. So, you know, this is like a moment that her bill is now gatherings, co sponsors. And after the lame duck session will be taken for a vote on the floor. I think the other one is actually resolution of Congress, hr 100. That's Barbara Lee's bill. And that is to create a committee to discuss how to do truth and reconciliation in this country. And then it will become a bill eventually. And so it's actually very interesting. I was fortunate enough to be Rockefeller, Bellagio resident last year, which is a place that is in heaven called Italy. And I was able to spend a month there writing the book, and the other 13 people from across the world, all different kinds of backgrounds. And one of them was the former Chief Justice of South Africa. So he was in prison in Robben Island with Mandela. And he was part of, you know, researching all the constitutions in the world and writing their constitution for South Africa. And, you know, part of the truth and reconciliation process they did there. So I was like, fantastic, because, you know, wanna been wanting to work on this for 15 years. And so I asked him, you know, why wasn't it so successful in South Africa, and it was partly successful, but like in Rwanda was super successful. So why wasn't it as successful in South Africa, so that we can learn as Americans. And he said, because they didn't include reparations. So what happened is they invited the poor farmer from a barren farm to come and give his story. He told the truth he gave a story was retriggered through it, and then went right back to his barren farm was still unable to grow vegetables. So nothing actually changed for him. So if you don't have reparations at the heart of Truth and Reconciliation, you can't really make the societal change. And so that really struck me. So it's really interesting to me that these two amazing black women in Congress have gone. Okay, we have reparations, and we have truth and reconciliation, and we're gonna put these bills, you know, side by side. And so the way that it's happening is, it's in Congress, but it's also bubbling up from communities across the country, some places already starting to pilot truth and reconciliation, or something like that processes. And in the city of LA, we're also discussing how to do a pilot of it here. And that my role is to be like constantly, yes, yes, yes. But you have to include the art and the process. Because when you do an art space process, people first of all, it's enjoyable. Secondly, it's like incidental learning. It's not like sit down and let me tell you how terrible you are. And what you've done is so awful, that we find ways you know, we talk about race without people even knowing that they're talking about race. You know, we find ways through community art doing art together and music and poetry writing. And, you know, I teach at UCLA and at USC and UCLA I was doing this exercise that I made up that I started working with the girls who are incarcerated doing, which is like a fold over exercise where we were able to write on a piece of paper and fold it over and pass it to the next one and folding about race. But it was amazing, because nobody even realized that they were talking about race on it, you know, and because the prompts are just like I am, my community is, and then it was really beautiful. And we did at UCLA because this black woman, this like, big black woman from the hood, who like, stood up, and she was like, I want to read. And so she took one out and opened up to read it. And it started with, I am a privileged white woman. And it was so beautiful, because the way that she read it, she was right, she was that person, she was all of the people, she was all of the communities at that moment. And so this is a one way one idea that the arts can give to have these very deep conversations you don't know you're having. And we have to do that. Because there are a bunch of people (white people) to people who just, you know, have never had to do that, you know, and as people of color, our benefit is that we have real resilience, because we've been doing this work for 400 years or more. And so asking people to do it for the first time, it is very difficult for them. And I understand, you know, my mother's a white woman, you know, I understand when you've benefited from these systems for, you know, 400 years, that why would you ever want to give it up? And why would you ever want to self reflect it's hard. So you have to give tools and guidelines and support without mollycoddling people because all of this crap about let's now go to civility. And let's just forgive and forget what's happened the last four years, we'll just get it again, in the next four years, you can't do that you have to have the truth, part of truth and reconciliation. And you have to have a supportive healing process, not a process of recrimination. Although the truth may feel like that to some people. 

Trae Holiday  42:13

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're, you know, this is exactly why so much of it has been about, okay, you know, folks out in the streets in front of like this collective awakening, a lot of people don't know, a lot of people have been living in their bubble. And you mentioned something to when we were first talking about this interview about setting this up, about how important ally ship is really in that process. So I want to get into that. Because I think exactly what you just described, it really is about folks understanding that, right now is the time to begin to think about things differently and bring in the opportunities for more of this ally ship. But I want you to get into a little bit of that.

Sabra Williams  42:56

Again, like everything good that's happened to my life, I've learned this through prison through my partners who are inside have taught me this, like everything, they've taught me how to be a good ally. And you know, what is being a good ally, it's very simple, it's what I would say is you have to do the work. And doing the work means you're not just telling other people to do the work, you're doing the work. And the work is the internal work, you have to self reflect, you have to take responsibility and be accountable, you have to come through you have to have, you know, integrity, all of these things. And if you don't have them, now, you have to have the tools to build those things, you have to have tools to build resilience. And that's what I'm talking about with the arts. And so I think that the reason that people first of all, they're often blinded to the fact that they're not good allies, they think they're being good allies, but what they're being as saviors, particularly in prison, you know, when you are working. I'm just gonna take prison as an example, when you're working with people who have systems impacted. You don't know their lives, you don't know what it was like before they came to prison, you don't know what it's like when they're in prison. So to come in with an assumption of you have something that you're going to teach them, as opposed to you have tools to begin a conversation a back and forth conversation with them, and talking about a verbal conversation on the map, physical conversation, or an emotional conversation, then you are causing damage, you are colonizing recolonizing these people so people don't realize it and they get super hurt when it's pointed out because they're like, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart. I'm not getting paid. I'm getting paid very little. I've worked so hard to build this. And I think that the issue is not that yes, all of that is great. But don't you want it then to create value and not have harm. And here's how it can create value. Because just because they're not telling you, Black people talk among ourselves. We don't tell you necessarily thing that you know, that if you're harming people know that and people feel it, even if they can't articulate it. And so, you know, to me, we kind of have to build an ally School, which is what we do at creative acts, we train people how to be allies, while continuing to train ourselves. And that's the thing I think that people I've noticed in this whole Black Lives Matter movement is that for the first time, I've seen people of all races marching together, in this the most segregated country in the world, you know, most countries don't have Chinese people living there, Black people living there. Most places don't do that that's uniquely American, because of redlining and slavery and the other things. So you know, to see this, this movement with, you know, so many people of different races together was super exciting. But, you know, again, as Black people were like, do they have the resilience to come through for more than this COVID time or more than the month of March, you know, so I think that, you know, the lack of resilience is because all this emotional stuff is coming up underneath the surface by having exposure to things that people didn't know before. And that's where my work is that you know, in prison, we work with an awareness of the four basic emotions, happy, angry, sad and afraid. And that while it seems like we're playing and having fun and making change, and it's all good, underneath, there's this earthquake of emotions coming up. So what the arts do is give tools to people to learn how to manage, heal, transform those emotions, and use them as fuel for growth. And so that's what people need. That's particularly what white people need right now, is an ability to gain tools for the hard fight ahead. Because like I say, we're not like, perfect in any way. But we do have a lot of tools to cope, because we have had to, you know, when you have to sit and give your kid the talk, when he's 13 years old, after Trayvon just been killed, murdered, you know, you have to learn resilience and emotional tools to be able to deal with that, when his best friend's mom doesn't even know what the talk is, you know, that is like, it's not like we haven't been doing work. And we've there's not work for us to do as well. We've been doing it for a long time, and how we have tools that we can share, so that you, if you don't want to do it, you're going to be super unhappy, because the works gonna happen anyway. Right?

Trae Holiday  47:37

Absolutely. Well, you know, Sabra, I'm just elated. This has been amazing before we get out of here, because I think everything you've said, I just I'm just gonna just keep echoing and saying Absolutely, absolutely. Because I agree with you wholeheartedly there. And I and you know, really, up here King County Equity Now we've worked really hard to build a solid foundation of volunteers. And when you talk about ally ship, what I'm really seeing in our community here is a real resilience and response to that call, right? stepping up to the plate and saying, we recognize these harms that were done, not only in our country, just kind of globally around, you know, black folks, indigenous folks and people of color, we understand that. But also, this is something I can do right here in my hometown, or where I'm living right now, if it's not my hometown, this is some change I can make here, right here on the ground. And I think that when you call out, particularly the uncomfortability, of a lot of this work, that really is where we are right now. And it is a part of the fabric of how we're going to unweave I think a lot of these historical harms. And so the I'm just elated. This has been fantastic. I want to ask you, before we get out of here, what can people do to support these two bills coming up? I know that's gonna be huge. And of course, I want to know what I could be doing here. What can folks do to support?

Sabra Williams  48:59

Yeah, so let me just say one more thing in terms of support. We must make visible and center indigenous people in this country. In Washington State, you have very visible native communities, they're probably the doing, you know, the most visible in the country, maybe, maybe Dakota too, but, you know, they already have all the answers. Like they already have the tools like Black people, they are super resilient, and they've had to develop tools to survive. So we have to amplify and center and make visible indigenous people in this process. So that's one thing I want to say and anything people can do to do that, you know, follow them IllumiNative, IllumiNatives, you can follow on social media, and they will also link you to lots of other native american sites and organizations. So that's one thing in terms of the bills. The only way we're going to get these bills through is if your representatives, co sponsor them. So please ask your call your representative calls work the best for politicians, they always telling me we check calls that we knocked down how many people call us call your representative ask them, are they co sponsoring hr 40, and HR Conrad's 100, you can just say hr 100, you know the truth and racial transformation and healing bill. If they're not, please, please co sponsor them. And then next year, when they come up for being a vote, please get them to vote for them. That is how it's gonna make change, you know. And then the other thing I would say is what you were saying about volunteers. What happened in this election, Black women in particular Black people, and Native American people and Latino people made this happen. It wasn't like country leaders. It was local volunteers, local activists that made you know, this massive change that we needed in this country. So don't underestimate what you're doing locally. That is national politics, there is nothing more important than working where you are right now. Whatever it is, and trust me, my work was invisible for many, many years. And in a lot of ways, it's still invisible, because I'm not trying to be an influencer. And I have a book out yet. So, you know, my work was literally invisible inside presence. For four years, we were volunteers. You know, we have like, no spotlight on us at all. But we did the work. And we've dug deep and we learned we were educated by that process. So please don't underestimate what you do that people don't see, in terms of cause and effect, every cause you make the effect as immediately registered in the universe, and will come to fruition. So it matters and more than anything, it matters in your own life. It has made me a better person, a better actor, all of this works. So if you want to be happy, if you want to live a value creative life that when you die, you can say you did something with your life, volunteer. And that's what it is. 

Trae Holiday  52:10

Yeah, absolutely. Miss Abra Williams, Oh, my gosh, creative acts, I cannot thank you enough for for spending some time with me today. And really getting our audience to understand so much about your work. And really the importance of the arts and how the arts need to stay centric to how we're going to look at you know, solutions in the future. I think it's super important. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Sabra Williams  52:33

And also you are doing amazing work. So thank you so much for the incredible work you're doing and Linnea as well. And you know, everybody in your organization, you're doing incredible work. You're doing exactly the work that needs to be done in this country. So thank you so much for including me.

Trae Holiday  52:49

Absolutely. Creative acts. We're so thankful. 

Sabra Williams  52:55

creativeact.us!

Trae Holiday  52:55

That's what I was gonna ask how can people find you? So there it is creative acts, www.creativeacts.us.

Sabra Williams  53:03

And if you want to look on our social media with creative_acts.

Trae Holiday  53:08

All right, thank you so much. I am elated. Thank you so much. You have a great one. I am excited and I'll be in touch. Now. This is a connection. I'll keep I'll make sure I nurture.

Sabra Williams  53:18

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Linnea Ingalls  53:23

Thanks for listening to Equity Rising. Our next episode will be out next week Thursday. Subscribe to get new episodes as soon as they come out. And if you enjoy the podcast or have learned something from these conversations, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It really helps us get these ideas out there. You can follow King County equity now and Trae Holliday on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter. Thanks for tuning in y'all.