Equity Rising S1 : Episode 12
Black and Queer in French Fashion with Anthony Vincent; Paris, France
Even if all you know is the name—Extimité—of the French-language podcast that Anthony Vincent co-hosts with afrofeminist Douce Dibondo, you know a lot about this West Indies native. Extimité is like intimacy, he explains to Trae—but an exterior intimacy; an intimacy with the world. After studying literature at La Sorbonne and beginning his career in fashion journalism, Anthony was galvanized by the 2016 murder of Adama Traoré in Paris, and shifted his attention to include police brutality, queerphobia, and more. Examining racism, sexism, ableism, and colonialism through the lens of the fashion industry, Anthony and his community are eager to illuminate and repair the darker side of the postcard-perfect Paris ideal.
Find Anthony on instagram at @anthonyvnct and Extimité at @extimitelepodcast
This week’s Chime In features Meysha and Skylar Wilkerson.
This episode was produced by Linnea Ingalls & Julia Drachman and edited by Josh Berl.
Transcript
Kayla Imrisek 0:01
Hi, my name is Kayla Imrisek and I’m a member of the production team for Equity Rising, the podcast from King County Equity Now. In this episode our host Trae has a conversation with Anthony Vincent, Writer at Têtu Magazine – a prominent French LGBT+ magazine that’s on a mission to make the world more gay. Anthony is also a Co-host of the Podcast “Extimité”, which features interviews with individuals subject to systemic oppression due to their gender identity, sexuality, body, or mental condition. In this episode, Anthony and Trae discuss the experiences of being Black and queer in Paris, representation in the fashion industry, intersectionality, and the racism and racial justice movements in France. We hope you enjoy - and thanks for listening to Equity Rising.
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TraeAnna Holiday 0:54
Welcome, everybody to Equity Rising. I'm your host Trae Holliday. And I am so elated. We have another global guest with us today. And it is exciting to welcome onto the show Anthony Vincent of France. And you do so many different things. We're going to be jumping into all of the amazing work you do. But thank you so much for joining us on Equity Rising Anthony!
Anthony Vincent 1:18
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
TraeAnna Holiday 1:21
Absolutely. That's exciting for me, when we have our global guests, we like to do First things first. And that is we got to ask how are you taking care of yourself?
Anthony Vincent 1:31
I’m doing well, I'm taking well care. I’m really well rested. I have a full ass situation like, it’s so relaxing for me. I do a lot of exercise. I do French boxing with kicks and fists three times a week so it helps me to stay calm and to let off steam so I’m really well.
TraeAnna Holiday 1:55
Look, now that sounds amazing. A lot of the times, you know, we realize that during COVID is changing a lot of our regimens. So I love hearing that you have an amazing regimen for yourself. Kudos to you, my friend. We're gonna get into this because you do a lot of different work. But I want to start off kind of in the beginning, like what got you into, you know, being a journalist. What made you even think about that because you have your podcast, but you also write for other magazines. So we want to hear about your beginnings. What got you into the work? You do?
Anthony Vincent 2:32
Yeah so I’m a French journalist from Paris I’m twenty seven years old. I’m a Black gay man and I write for many magazines as you said French fasion magazine but also femisist magazine but also queer magazines since like I was twenty two years old. I started at La Sorbonne University in Paris and since then I am a full on journalist. I also have a podcast which I cofounded with Douce Dibondo she’s a congolese bisexual cis gender woman and we do cohost a podcast which is called Extimité. Which means intimacy in a way. Like intimacy but towards the world.
TraeAnna Holiday 3:16
You do a lot. Clearly, as you just named off so many different publications that you write for. How did you get connected to all of the magazines that you work for?
Anthony Vincent 3:27
Yeah I was at La Sorbonne University and I was training for many magazines such as Grazia, La Figaro, Madame Figaro, which are fashion magazines in French-in France. And that’s how I put a foot into this world. And then as a journalist, as a freelancer, I tried to-to sell works to different magazines and as a gay man myself, I wanted to write about what it is like to be Black and gay in France, about the queer community but also the racism in this community, and how we can fight that and fight this homophobia that can exist in Black communities also so lets face all problems them and solve them together. So that's how I put my foot into this world of media.
TraeAnna Holiday 4:17
Wow. You know, it's so amazing to me, because as we were getting to know each other, on our other call, it was so apparent how connected our struggles are all over the world. It doesn't matter if you're in the US, if you're in France. I mean, we're dealing with a lot of the same issues, and we have a lot of homophobia and transphobia in our community as well. What are some of the things that you feel you've been able to do to push the needle forward so people understand the need to eradicate transphobia and homophobia?
Anthony Vincent 4:51
Yeah I try to write a lot about those things with people who are concerned about those things with people who lead those issues such as transgender people and queer people in general into my writing but also throughout the podcast, Extimité. We invite guests who can tell their stories about being transgender or being a lesbian or being a gay man or stuff like that. Also keeping in mind intersectionality which can help us understand the specificities of those issues in France in this context when you can be queer and a person of color, what does happen in France where homophobia and racism can interact and create more problems or issues very very specific issues. Which we can call misogynoir for example which is a combination of sexism and racism when you are a Black woman so we talk about that into Extimité. But I also talk about that throughout my articles where I can interview like the woman who embodies the fight against structural racism in France today who is called Assa Traoré. She is really leading this movement in France today. And I had the chance, the opportunity to interview her to make her work being aware, more recognized and more accessible. So that’s my work.
TraeAnna Holiday 6:16
Wow, you know, we do a lot of similar things. Because I think that the answers and the experts really are within our community, we see people yes, stepping up, to help educate others in the large masses of people. And that is something that is really at the center of my work here with King County Equity Now is, you know, we need more education out there in the streets. And, you know, honestly, when we're talking about racism, it is a real thing that plagues all of our communities all over the world. If you are black, there are certain areas of racism and structural racism that you're going to deal with. What are some of the ways that you've experienced racism in France?
Anthony Vincent 7:02
Yeah this is a really tricky question for France because French people act like racism doesn’t exist as if it was something from the past that we eradicated, but that’s not the case at all. They act like a color blind philosophy and as a French West Indian guy in France, living in France today, I grew up in the suburbs and it’s really full of people of color but full of racism also, from policemen and government. So we have uh this is a tricky question because it has a lot to do with colonialism because we are not yet past colonial society and yet French people act as if we were. So yeah! I remember being identity checked by a policeman when I was only twelve years old. I remember my little brother being beaten up by policemen when he was only fourteen years old. I remember being ethnically profiled by security guards everywhere so yeah since I was a little kid so there is structural racism everywhere and as in the US it’s different but similar in a way and so many ways as you just said.
TraeAnna Holiday 8:15
Wow, that's the thing that pains my heart sometimes to understand, it doesn't matter where we are, that it really is on us to continue to work and fight towards liberation for us all, because ultimately, you said it there onto me that, you know, this colonialism, the ideals that came with colonialism, honestly, are a major driver for so much of the caste system we see when we're talking about, you know, classes and races and ethnicities, and putting them on some type of, you know, hey, you're better than this one, or this one's better than that one. It really is unfortunate that we have to live through all of this. And one of the things that I think has really inspired me about how you guys deal with things in France, is you guys are not quiet about these issues you guys will take to the streets and protest when you see injustice when it's felt. And I really want to ask you because we just experienced, you know, all of these global protests after George Floyd's murder, and I think it just kind of wrecked the world in terms of we're tired of seeing this. I know the issues in the US permeate throughout. But how is it there? Because you guys do protests a lot. And it seems like you guys get out there and fight injustice often. But how does it play out there?
Anthony Vincent 9:41
Yeah it’s really complicated because in the US it looks like you can speak about white supremacy about racism about structural racism but in France it’s really big big big taboo. We don’t talk about racism at all like we act like it doesn’t exist at all and it's why we have to go into the streets and protest against that because it’s such an issue. An invisiblized one. I remember in 2005 two teenagers died of electrocution in a transformer station where they had take refuge because policemen were hunting them they were like sixteen years old even little and the death sparked the 2005 French riot in the suburbs where young people were revolting against ethinic profiling about police brutality and against structural racism basically it was like 25000 rioters protesting in the streets and burning some cars, I admit. Which is so French because rioters were not white so the media didn’t call it a revolt but a riot. Which says a lot. But nothing changed at all after those 2005 riots so even though 2009 study said that Black and North African people were eight times more likely to be stopped by police than white people for example. We have so many studies talking about racism but it's such a taboo because yeah we don’t talk about it and I remember in 2016 Assa Traoré who I mentioned earlier who embodies this fight against racism today. In 2016 she lost her little brother because three policemen tried to arrest him with the same choke hold that killed eric garner in the US. and he said the same thing in French that eric garner ‘he can’t breathe, he can’t breathe’ seven times and policemen killed him anyway. And this was not the first time. They had, we had many other cases after Adama Traoré’s death that since 2016 that his big sister Assa Traoré she doesn’t quit she’s right there in the streets every year every month protesting against racism, structural racism, against police brutality. So we don’t have any more choices, we have to go into the streets and be heard. We have to shout, we have to organize, we have to do community work and that’s what she is doing and I try to help her for example and we are so many people organizing and caring about each other and fighting injustice.
TraeAnna Holiday 12:24
Wow, one of the things you also said to me is that because you guys get out in the streets, the government just doesn't even take it seriously.
Anthony Vincent 12:33
Yeah it doesn’t at all, like Assa Traoré. She has been protesting since 2016 and even now we don’t have justice. We don't have peace, the government and the policemen and low people lied many times about Adama Traoré case. Even the New York Times wrote an article about that because it was so obvious they were lying so obviously and but since now, bon, and even now we don’t have justice, we don’t have peace and we are still in the streets. But now we are connecting a lot more with social media,with community works, with organizing our forces to fight racism so the government can’t ignore us any more they don’t have a choice now. We have such a big voice so now they can’t ignore any more.
TraeAnna Holiday 13:21
I'm getting so filled right now. Because honestly, that is exactly the ways that we are moving here, I think in the US, particularly up here in the Pacific Northwest with, you know, King County Equity Now bringing organizations together to say no, if we find all of this on a collective front, you know, like, together, we're so much stronger. And clearly, there's a lot of voices in France, that are now saying, look, we can't just expect for people to get it right, we have to show them what that is. And, you know, honestly, when we talk about police brutality, you know, the ways that you were just describing those situations and examples. In France, we have so many here. I think that when we think about the global efforts of so many folks that are trying to ensure people understand all of this in the ways that is necessary for us to come together to make the real change is phenomenal. But also, it's one of those things where it feels like it's a sign of the time. So I just thank you for giving us those examples because it really showcases the connectivity of all of our issues globally, and how we're getting out and we're really demanding equity. I think that's really what it is when we talk about it. That's why I love the the term of "equity now" because it really goes for everywhere. One of the things I talk about often on this podcast is that equity needs to be infused in everything. You know, you're saying look, I'm a gay proud Black man, you know, Frenchman, and you're writing for fashion magazines, and you're able to infuse that into fashion. How do the two intersect when you're thinking about some of the ways that equity needs to also be brought into the fashion industry?
Anthony Vincent 15:15
Yeah that's a good question because for example in the fashion world we have like four big cities who showcase fashion shows. So, New York, London, Milan and Paris and in the US CFDA said something about racism like said, “Oh, enough is enough now we are going to do some progress. We have to have goals to achieve.” London said the same thing they had like actions, four big actions to do. Milan said the same thing but Paris said nothing at all. Because again France acts like nothing is wrong so I for example for a big magazine who will be released next month a new issue I wrote an article about this silence this French silence about racism in the fashion industry because even in fashion if you are Black maybe you are cool on a runway but you are ignored backstage. You are neglected if you are a designer, if you are a model, if you are a journalist so it's really really hard to thrive and to work hard. So for example if you are a Black fashion designer in France we have so so so s litle examples we like maybe five fashion designers but among them if you ar Black fashion designer you are treated as emerging designer forever and always even if you are working for twenty years so it's really really hard and when we have one fashion designer who succeeds for example Olivier Rousteing at Balmain a big fashion house. Olivier Rousteing is the exception that justifies the rule because he’s the only one so French people are like oh racism doesn’t exist because we have Olivier Rousteing but it’s not the proof, it’s only the exception. So this kind of thinking, I write a lot about this because it’s so structural. Fashion is just an example but fashion is such a good example because integrated with entertainment industry, with the cinema, with the culture, with the economy because fashion is so important for French economy so it’s like a soft power because everyone everywhere knows Chanel for example or Dior but those kind of big fashion houses are rooted in colonialism because the fabrics the workforces, everyone and everywhere this is rooted into colonialism and post colonial economy, so it’s really really a big mirror of those issues, those social issues. And it’s really interesting because it speaks to so many people because everybody gets clothes. So everybody can understand where cotton comes from, where silk comes, from where...where those clothes are made in poor countries throughout the world into Asia into Africa into ex-colonies. It’s really interesting because it speaks to so many people.
TraeAnna Holiday 18:11
I agree so much. Thank you for explaining that. Because, you know, sometimes for me, I've wondered, we talked about Black folks, as you know, globally, the number one consumers and we will buy the fashions, we will spend money on name brands, we want our children and ourselves to, you know, look and feel a certain way. And I do think that there is a bit of a dichotomy with that because we get treated so badly, right? But yet, we got to make sure we look as if we don't get treated so badly. It is this constant thing. And yet, what you just said there is so key because there aren't a lot of Black fashion designers that we can look up to even in the US, right, it's still, you know, people wanting to wear Esmé Lauren or you know, like you just said Chanel or Dior. I mean, these are the kinds of names that still resonate in the US, it still goes back to colonialism. And yet even though we know that these you know, main brands are run and often owned by, you know, white folks, we still spend so much of our paychecks or whatever, to try to connect to that or to maybe be a part of it or to feel that we are accepted there. I just wonder from your perspective and seeing it on the other side. Is that something that you also see when it's like, you know, Black people flocking to buy these fashions?
Anthony Vincent 19:43
Yeah totally because even like in the French hip hop industry people are making songs about buying Gucci, St Laurent, Dior and Balmain like it’s a joke but this is really interesting because we still as Black people being mistreated, we still respect those name and those brands even though they are rooted into colonialism. The idea of luxury and prestige is rooted into colonialism. If you think about it, it can give you vertigo because the veneer, the tobacco, the silks, the cotton, everything is from colonialism and those big fashion houses made coins and thousands and thousands of dollars with exploiting those forces and those clothing and those materials. So it’s really interesting, even in France, yeah, we still buy into this idea of luxury which is rooted into white supremacy. I remember reading a sentence by the guy who invented free public schooling for everyone in France, he is called Jules Ferry, in 1884 he said, “The higher races have a right over the lower races, they have a right to civilize the inferior races.” so this is rooted into culture, into our way of thinking, into our way of seeing what is right and what is strong and what is powerful and beautiful. We still like, buy white supremacy.
TraeAnna Holiday 21:14
Oh, man, that was so beautiful, how you wound that together? Because you're absolutely right. Again, the similarities of what we're talking about, and how we experience things from all over in Washington State right here to where you are in France. It's actually really stark for me. And that's why I really have been enjoying all the guests on this podcast. And I think that the global guests really helped me understand how connected we actually are when it comes to our issues. So I'm just so appreciative of everything, you're really saying to make our audience understand that these issues persist, no matter really where we are. I want to jump into a bit of your childhood because I know you were raised in the suburbs in France, and I want the audience to get an understanding of what that was like for you in terms of the suburbs there.
Anthony Vincent 22:07
Yeah, yeah so the suburbs are in France are very interesting because since anti-colonial movements in France people from ex-colonies such a Martinique, where I come from in the Carribean, but also West Africa and North Africa started to settle down in France mostly in the suburbs of big cities like Paris and that’s why there are so many people of color in the Suburbs because urbanism politics planned to mass them there. But those are really poor neighborhoods since the fifties, with many frictions and many vandalism and insecurities and the far right uses the image of the suburbs full of people of color to fuel racism. So I grew up there in the nineties in this very multicultural context. And yeah when I was there I saw the 2005 riots against racism. I saw Adama Traoré death and how it sparked so many riots against racism also and i felt safe as a Black gay man there but I was afraid of police actually, not afraid of homophobia of queer phobia in general. I was afraid of policemen. My mother was always worry and she still worry every day because I'm Black in France and as it is in America I guess. When you’re Black in America, you’re not safe at all. James Baldwin himself went to Paris, went to France and said, “Oh I’m also a negro there and it’s really intersting because I thought I would flee my condition of a Black gay man when I flee the US but even in France I’m still a negro.” So yeah I grew up in the suburbs full of people of color but with so much racism. The suburbs are maybe the epicenter of what racism can be, what racism can look like in France but yeah…..I laugh but it’s nervous.
TraeAnna Holiday 24:06
Right? I mean, yeah, because what you're talking about is so true on to me that these are our lived experiences, right? And so I say this often because we look at numbers and sometimes we look at data. And it's like, okay, we understand that this is what it looks like when we're talking about wealth and the racial wealth gaps, right? Okay. So here in Seattle, the average white household is like 170,000. And the average Black household is like 42,000 is just stark is just a stark difference. And it may be like 102,000, for average white, but either way, there's a huge gap between white household income and black household income. And we see these numbers all the time, but I think when we see them on a graph It's like, oh, man, that's messed up. But when you live it every day, that's a whole other thing. And yeah, trying to get allies to understand that and bring it out in a way that still allows Black folks to have the power that we have, because we are brilliant. And we have to build this entire world, right when you start thinking about it globally. And I think that it's important because without the free labor of so many, colonialism couldn't have even succeeded the way that it did. And that's why it's important to always uplift the beginnings, right? How do you guys do that there in France, because I know here, we talk about the slave era, but we talk about it in the Black community with a term of endearment of, you know, the sacrifice that our folks had to make back then when we're always thinking about our ancestors. How do you guys incorporate the ideas, your ancestors on French land? They are for future generations and current generations?
Anthony Vincent 26:03
That’s a really good question and as you just said this is really interesting because I didn’t mention it earlier but in France we don’t really have data. We don’t really have racial data. We have many studies but we don’t really said, “Oh Black people are poorer than white people.” It’s more trickier than that. We don’t really have data because we can’t say races. We can't’ say Black people or white people. it’s taboo, it’s too much taboo. So it also have an impact into education because public educatoin in France is mandatory, for sure, yes it’s a good thing, but we don’t really talk about slavery that much. we talk about that maybe one or two month into your sixteen year old. So it’s really short and we just say, “Ohhhh we did slavery and let’s move on.” And that’s it. That’s really it. Even if you are into Guadeloupe or Martinique in the French West Indies they just said, “Ohhh yeah your ancestors were slaves” and that's it. We don’t have community education that much. We just have public education and into public education we don’t have a lot of education into races. Expecially not colonialism and slavery and how much it made it into French history and culture. But yeah, we try to change that because people from ex-colonies, from North Africa, from Asian countries, from West Indies, we organize and we do, like just like you, like podcasts because it’s free. Accessible for so many people and you can get education by yourself because nobody is going to get you the knowledge to help fight what they are sitting on.
TraeAnna Holiday 27:35
Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, I'm so inspired because honestly to realize how important it is for us to pick up the torch, you know, yet nobody's gonna do it for us. And we talk about that often here, too. You know, sometimes when people talk about a top down approach, like oh, well, you know, the government has the resources and they'll get to the people eventually, you know, they'll trickle down to the people over like that trickle down never happened. You know, what I mean? is still is not happening. It's not really a method that can be utilized to ensure that people are, you know, living their best lives.
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Kayla Imrisek 28:14
For this week's chime in, we'll be joined by Meysha, a non binary queer musician, and Skyler, a queer artist and performer, Meysha and Skylar are dating, met in Seattle, and recently moved down to Atlanta. Anthony shares a little bit about what it's like to be Black, and we're in Paris today. We sat down with Meysha and Skylar, to talk about their experiences in Seattle and Atlanta.
Meysha 28:39
Folks don't even register you as queer. And so immediately they see you as like aggressive homophobic, like, all these things, because there's almost this impossibility in in white folks minds to like, see you as anything beyond like Black first, like, white folks wouldn't even register like that we were queer.
Skylar 28:56
In Seattle, we experienced trying to connect in the community, you know, and in spaces that were mostly white, they couldn't get past that we were Black so we can't like, go out and have fun and hang out at a place or whatever, because like the energy in the room is now stank because they're reacting to us being there - not because we're there if anything, we're bringing the shit up. We're elevating the value.
Meysha 29:25
Or the environment doesn't feel inviting to us. Going out into spaces that are supposed to be for everybody, for all queer bodies. I think about pride weekend - like pride events in Seattle are... you definitely know that they're not for you.
Skylar 29:37
We go into these like spaces and like we too queer for the Black spaces too Black for the white spaces.
Meysha 29:45
And it's interesting because now we're in Atlanta. We're around hella Black folks and so that's been like it's been like coming home. And it's like had that element of I'm coming home, I'm around people who look like me. And I still can manage to feel like I'm being othered. I'm being othered. Because y'all can tell I'm different. Or I'm some type of genderqueer I'm some type of not cisgender what's looked at as normal.
Skylar 30:08
People say a lot of cis straight Black people's like, you're Black first. And I'm like...
Meysha 30:16
Like don't be proud of anything else, because this is like, this is how we unite. This is how we're united and like, I'm proud and love it all together, like all together. A kid asking their parent what I am loudly, and then the parent loudly being like, I don't know what it is. And then I'm having a dialogue about me...
Skylar 30:31
How do you... how are we still in this age of 2021 telling people, I just don't agree with your lifestyle? I just don't accept it? There's nothing to agree or accept like, I will beat your ass what are you talking about like, I am here you can't disagree with me, I'm here!
Meysha 30:53
I've literally arrived some years ago. And like, yeah.
Skylar 30:56
So the problem is with you and like you're making it my problem, and that's - being Black and being queer is never the problem. I love it. We love it. It's it's all over where we are in the world that we make. It's how people react to us, that makes it all so heavy. That's why the spaces that we create for each other are so sacred. That's why they're so important is what we have, we live on the extreme because of the reactions to people and they don't even realize it. Like, we just want simple things and y'all make our lives that every time we step out of the house, the stakes are so high.
Meysha 31:00
And I'm finding like that there are moments where - like today I was talking to my trainer, and he's like, you know, as your straightest guys guy as you can get and I'm like, you know, like, you know about trans thing? What do you know? He was I'm not gonna lie to you, I don't know much about it. But I really want to learn. Like just like that, you know, and I'm just like that if people could just have that energy around it, you know?
Skylar 32:02
We're trying - we gonna find... I mean, COVID is happening so its hard to find where we are, where we at. I know we're there, we see them there when we're out...
Meysha 32:13
When we see Black queer folks we're like...ohhh okay I see you!
Skylar 32:17
There's couples there be couples!!
Meysha 32:19
It's us, look at us!!
Skylar 32:23
It's us too! So it's so beautiful being out here. We just wanna connect.
Kayla Imrisek 32:31
Huge thank you to Meysha and Skylar for sharing a part of their story. And now, back to the interview.
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TraeAnna Holiday 32:40
You know, one of the Africantown's models, another organization I work with is that our people need to live and thrive in place. We're disrupting gentrification. And that's one of the things I want to ask you to because when you talk about the suburbs, being you know, predominantly Black, but still feeling that, you know, insecurity around police and that fear around police, that's something that we dealt with in the inner cities here in the States. And then now we have the inner cities being the gyms, and they're coming in in the droves. And they're disrupting all of the culture that we had in so many inner cities throughout America. And the central district in Seattle is one of them. And how has that worked in France? Are you guys also dealing with, you know, kind of gentrification, where, you know, they kind of come in, they see your area now is profitable. And so hey, they start putting up, you know, luxury apartment complexes or luxury condominiums, so that it makes it unaffordable for folks to live where they grew up.
Anthony Vincent 33:45
Yeah totally it happens in France too. Around Paris especially and also a city in the south of France which is called Marseille. But in Paris it is really sparking because as you mentioned we have a lot of gentrification in the suburbs. The suburbs, the little cities around Paris, which were predominately Black and north African people, are becoming more and more expensive because Paris is so so so expensive so white people, even white people, have to go into the suburbs even though they find it ghetto and they say ‘oh it’s a no go zone’ but they get there and they put their children into private school and they profit. They buy a house for little money and they put their children into private school so they don’t have to mingle with the Black and North African people and the then they call you today, they say, ‘Oh no we are not racist because we live in the suburbs and we have a house there but we put their children into private school any way.’ So they just act like nothing is wrong with it, but nobody is stupid. We just get it. You’re just getting there to get richer and richer. You’re just too poor for Paris but you come into the suburbs and just said, “Ohh yeah you’re too ghetto, let's get higher.” That's so wrong, that’s so wrong.
TraeAnna Holiday 35:04
Yeah, I mean, you know, this is how important it is to connect our issues. Because I think this is why we see this is not just an issue in one area, right. And sometimes I think when we're dealing with it, we're dealing with it because we have to attack our community, our streets, we have to first secure our streets before we connect globally. But I'm hearing from so many of the guests through the Equity Rising podcasts that the real need is for us to figure out a global way of connecting everything, because when we talk about folks from the global majority, that are experiencing these disparities, when we even say global majority, it is clear that we are the majority when we come together, right, that there's a real opportunity to connect our struggles in a way that brings about real change. And I'm just I'm very moved and inspired by that. One of the things that I think we also deal with here in the US, and I want to ask you about this in France, is we also deal with folks that are Black, that you know, hey, they've made it to a certain degree, right? They went to the right schools, they got the right jobs, they got the right influences, they are making great money. And so even though they're Black, they're not really willing to disrupt what they feel they have in order to really fight this struggle. And so we talk about like Black bourgeoisie, or, you know, we say that they're a part of some elite class, or they think they are, and they think that they've transcended enough that their skin color doesn't matter as much, right? Like, oh, I'm a, you know, CEO at a fortune 500 company, I make millions of dollars, also participating in the stock market, I have several properties, whatever it is that makes them feel like they made it means then that the issues of their blackness don't affect them maybe as much, even though they deal with all of these things about micro aggressions, they probably deal with a lot of different racist acts, but because they can go home to a million dollar mansions or something like that, that there's this need to not fight because they've made it. So I'm gonna ask you about that. Do you guys also have this kind of Black elite class in France?
Anthony Vincent 37:30
It’s less visible because we don’t organize that much because we have so many rivalities like a kind of competition between Black people. Between many Black communities in France because we have like Black people from the West Indies, Black people from West Africa, Black people from East Africa. And we have like so many different histories. This is a big difference with Black people in the US because you are from many many generations. You are here for a long long time but we still have a big, a lot of different waves of immigration with different stories, and different aspirations. So it puts a lot of competition between Black people, but with this competition, we also just like you said have a little bit of a Black Bourgeoisie. But this Black bourgeoisie doesn’t shout about their success because they are so so little people, like you maybe can count them on just one hand. And they are, again, as I said, the exceptions that say it’s a rule, like that prove it’s a rule. They are the exceptions. But yeah we have this kind of like Black bourgeoisie who said, “Oh yeah I made it so racism doesn’t exist.” Or, “I made it so I don’t have to fight for you, like just work hard. You have to work twice as hard to get half of what they get. But it’s okay! I made it so do it yourself, by yourself.” But no, it’s not okay. Because when they will have children their child will face racism also when they go to school or when they want to study abroad. yeah if you are in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time people only see your color. They don’t see your expensive watch or your expensive suit. Like if they want to shoot you. They are going to shoot you. This is structural racism and money can’t get you away from racism.
TraeAnna Holiday 39:18
That's right. There's there's no way to change your skin color. Like I mean, folks have tried, but it doesn't work. So I agree with you there. I mean, this is why to me, when we talk about equity being infused in everything it is because so much of the world has been built to ensure that you know, the colonizers all over the world, really retain majority of the wealth. And I loved hearing what you said earlier and connecting them to the fashion industry and how it really ties back to colonialism. When we talk about the materials that are used, and all of that, that again, there are certain boundaries families that still are receiving so much profits, because we do use cotton the way we do, or we do use silk the way that we do. And I agree with you wholeheartedly there, I think it's really interesting to me to understand more of the nuances when we start tying a lot of industry major industry now back to colonialism, and to the families that spread it, and how they have protected their wealth over time. So this has been phenomenal. I, I know that you also were able to travel quite recently to Seattle. And I want to hear about your experience, because that's really exciting that that was the first time you came to the US, you came right here to my hometown, all of that for you seeing how we are up here.
Anthony Vincent 40:50
Yeah yeah I went to the US, to Seattle, for the first time last year, ah bon no, in 2019, yeah that’s it. And it was like for an article I was writing for a gay magazine, for the major gay magazine in France which is called Têtu, which means stubborn. So Têtu sent me to Seattle to see how Trump will get reelected or not and how people felt about it. So I went there and I was sleeping into a hostel. And i was like going in the street talking to people, like gay people, transgender people, homeless people, and saying, talking to them trying to understand how the climate was, how the political and social climate was but genrification also beaucse you have in seattle so many startups like Starbucks and Microsoft and stuff like that, like big companies, who are coming there and make the houses becoming more and more expensive. So it’s really intersting and I was there for like five days and I went into gay clubs also to understand how it works and how people feel and i remember taking taxis for example and talking to Black people who were coming from East Africa and we don’t have many East African in France because of immigration and colonialism. And it was really interesting to see the difference but so many many many similarities between your struggles and your successes and our struggles and our successes. I went there and I meet up with your friend David and it was really interesting because he’s a dancer and choreographer and he take me into his dance company and it was really funny and I understand a lot of things thanks to him.
TraeAnna Holiday 42:31
That's awesome. I'm glad that you enjoyed Seattle and got to see a bit of what we have going on over here. So that is amazing. Glad that you got with someone like David, you know, prominent gay man in our Seattle scene, and especially with regard to the arts. So I love that sounds like you are in the right company, honestly, while you were here. So that's amazing. And yeah, we do have a lot of East Africans here, it's very much a prominent factor. When we think about the diversity of Seattle, in the pockets there, we've been doing a lot of work recently, to connect more so that, you know, I think there was a bit of a misnomer, right? Because we were hearing and I've been learning a lot about, hey, when a lot of Africans come over here, and they migrate to America, they are told, you know, hey, don't mess with Black people, Black Americans, like they're lazy, they're thugs. They're this, they're that. And they're told a bunch of stories, honestly, to try to like disassociate themselves from American Black folks. And as people have been telling me their stories and how, you know, yeah, when I was in the immigration room, they were telling me this when I was over here, and I was trying to get my paperwork situated, I kept hearing these stories. And I'm like, wow, you know, like, there is a real direct attack to ensure that we do not connect ourselves as just Black people. Right. And that right, there is something that internally in the community, we're working to make sure that we break down those barriers because it's complete nonsense, first of all, and second of all the ideas around how much stronger we are together. That's what feels like they were trying to disrupt. I know you were talking before with me about how you know you're connecting with so many different people. You said it here earlier, you know, Asians, Africans and Frenchmen there. How do you guys bring your struggles together to try to create a collective voice in France?
Anthony Vincent 44:33
How is it working? Thanks to my podcast for example, which is called Extimité, we do a lot of community work because every episode is a different person who comes and tells her story and say how it is going for her or him or they against racism or queerphobia etcetera. And also those guests they have so many talents like maybe they are shrinks or maybe they are yoga teacher or maybe they are voguing dancer from the ballroom scene and after those podcast after those episodes, we do like self care day where we make so many conferences and talks about anti sectionality and racism and sexism and queerphobia and how we can tackle that and succeed from that and thrive after that. We also do yoga lessons and meditation and booking classes so we are taking care of ourselves. We are taking care of each other and we are getting educated together. We do like conferences and talks, as I just said, so it’s really interesting because it helps us getting organized and we care about ourselves in a way. We are like curators of self care and education and this is all small little work, but we also have like so many non governmental organizations but I don’t really work with them from time to time sometimes. But Extimité is my main focus because it’s little, it’s local and I can see how it’s working and I can really, really take care of people and each other. And we are getting links between Asian people in France and Black people in France and North African people in France and tramuna, lesbian communities, etc, etc. We are like, ‘Oh we are the majority.’ because we have so many minorities as you were just saying and yeah if we think about it we are stronger together. It can sound cheesy but it’s the truth and we have to get it. We have to understand it and to work from there.
TraeAnna Holiday 46:41
I agree. I agree so much. This has just been so enlightening on today. And I honestly I can't wait until like COVID subsides a bit so I could come and visit you and friends because honestly, I love the work that you're doing. Is there anything else like how cuz it's a podcast, and sure it's all in French, but we can figure out a way to get it translated? How can our audience connect with your podcast and connect with your work?
Anthony Vincent 47:10
Yeah actually maybe we will do some episodes in English in the future but the podcast is available on every platform like apple podcast or spotify. It’s called Extrmité. Maybe you will be able to write it in your description of this episode of Equiting Rising and also my name is Anthony Vincent and I am on twitter, instagram etc etc and my handle is @anthonyvnct and maybe you will write it down too. I’m everywhere!
TraeAnna Holiday 47:46
Amazing! Well, I'm so glad that we are connected now on to me and I look forward to building relationship with you. This is just the start. You know, this episode right here is really a start. If you ever do an episode in English, I'd love to join you on Extrmité for sure. Well, we'll continuing to build because I do think it is important that we start looking at this from a global perspective and understanding the ways that we can connect and combine our efforts. Because right now, I feel like colonialism still thinks it's winning, because we're working in silos a bit. And we have to get the work done in our communities. And that is so understandable because we have a lot of issues where you know, facing. And so it's important that we make sure our communities are solid. But also overall, I'm excited to start building a global network of equity changemakers who are doing this work in their communities and bringing it to a larger sense so that people understand we are here, we are proud of who we are, we come together It does not matter what your gender is what you identify as none of that matters. The fact of the matter is that globally, we're stronger together. I appreciate your time with us on Equity Rising today. I have been so informed and educated through you and I am so appreciative that you were able to take some time to give our audience a glimpse at what being Black in France is about. And I appreciate you so so much. Thank you.
Anthony Vincent 49:33
Thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate you so much too and your podcast and your work. it’s really amazing and as you just said, yeah we can be both, we can think local, act locally and organize locally but also understand how it’s working globally and organize globally and you are doing an amazing job. You are inspiring me too so so much so thank you so much!
TraeAnna Holiday 50:00
Absolutely Anthony we will definitely be in touch. That was another episode of Equity Rising y'all. I am elated to be able to have this amazing discussion with Anthony Vincent, you guys we will make sure that we put his podcast and his handle in our description box so that you guys can also connect because it is important. Again as I just said that we find ways to bring all of the struggles together. Thank you for listening to Equity Rising.
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Kayla Imrisek 50:33
Thanks for listening to Equity Rising. Our next episode will be out next week Thursday. Subscribe to get new episodes as soon as they come out. And if you enjoy the podcast, or have learned something from these conversations, please tell your friends and rate and review us on Apple podcasts. You can follow King County Equity Now and Trae Holiday on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter. Thanks for tuning in.