Equity Rising S1 : Episode 11

Decolonizing News & Media with Rhianna Patrick; Brisbane, Australia

From Seattle, Australia can seem a world away. But in so many ways, Rhianna’s experience as a Torres Strait Islander living on Aboriginal land feels deeply familiar. She and Trae have both spent much of their careers in mainstream media, having to suppress their own cultural identities in order to fit in and get ahead. But now, Rhianna is turning that on its head with her new role as Head of Audio and Podcasts at Indigenous X (short for “Indigenous Excellence”). Along with her team at Indigenous X, Rhianna is reimagining a world that values what Indigenous, community-based reporting can bring. Trae and Rhianna connect on how the U.S. and Australia are synced, from their histories of colonization, the Black Panther Party across the globe, and the fight to end Bla(c)k deaths in custody in Australia.

This week’s Chime In features Cashayla Rodgers.

This episode was produced by Linnea Ingalls & Julia Drachman and edited by Josh Berl.

Transcript

Linnea Ingalls  0:01  

It's time for a racial justice reckoning in news and media. I'm Linnea Ingalls, one of the producers for Equity Rising. And this week our host Trae dives deep with Rhianna, Patrick, the head of audio and podcasts at IndigenousX, an Australian Indigenous owned and operated media organization. Rhianna powerfully identifies the deeply problematic practices of mainstream white dominated media institutions, and beautifully illustrates what taking back community news and storytelling can look like through the work and practice of decolonizing ourselves. Trae and Rhianna also talk racial justice movements in both Australia and the US, and how their histories from colonization to the fights for liberation are intertwined. We think you'll learn a ton from this incredible conversation. Thanks for listening.

TraeAnna Holiday  0:50  

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Equity Rising with me your host Trae Holiday. And in this episode, I am elated to have joining us Rhianna Patrick, who is the head of audio and podcasts at IndigenousX of Australia. Rhianna, thank you so much for joining us.

Rhianna Patrick  1:10  

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

TraeAnna Holiday  1:11  

Absolutely. Well, I'm excited. And you know, every time we have these pre interview calls, and I promise you, I felt like I got to know you so quickly during our call. It was really amazing. And the way we love to start off before we get into anything, first things first, how are you taking care of yourself?

Rhianna Patrick  1:30  

Trying to I think is probably the best the best way to say it. Look, I've got to be honest, I absolutely love a little bit working from home. I've still been finding my niche. But I feel like that has just given me a totally different work environment that I haven't had before. Now that I know it's permanent. And I think the one thing I have been trying to do because like you I work a lot, I've tried to put aside one day in the weekend where I don't do anything. I don't check emails, I don't do some prep for something that I'm working on. I don't even think about work, I just have a day of just, if I want to watch an entire Netflix series, that's what I do. So I'm trying to be better at that. It's going okay, we'll see where I am a month from now. It always changes.

TraeAnna Holiday  2:16  

I was just telling the crew earlier, it's like helping to birth a new organization with King County Equity Now means like all hands on deck all the time. And I love hearing you say that, because that's some of the things that really used to give me my me time, you know what it was like, as a producer. I love to dissect TV, particularly TV shows. So I love hearing you say that it's great to know that you're, you know, taking at least a day out of every week to do that for yourself. Great work.

Rhianna Patrick  2:45  

Oh, thank you. Yeah, but I think it's always the trouble, isn't it when you work as much as you do, of keeping that up. And so you've got to be consistent. So my key goal is to be consistent in 2021.

TraeAnna Holiday  2:57  

Yeah, see, there we go. There we go. It ramped up in 2020 consistency in 2020. What I'm here for it, I really want to get into what it is you do. And you know, on this podcast, we've been talking to equity changemakers around the world, and really understanding how unique but yet similar our work is globally, but so much that we have to do so many of us being kind of on the front lines of equity and utilizing ourselves and our lived experience as a part of that. But I want to get into it with you over at IndigenousX, I know that you guys are striving to really showcase and be that kind of voice in Australia around media and making sure that you know, diverse voices are heard. Tell us more about your work.

Rhianna Patrick  3:42  

Yeah, so I'm the head of audio and podcasts, which is a new position that I stepped into towards the end of last year. And something that IndigenousX hasn't really dipped a toe into just yet. So they were looking at what they could do in the audio podcast realm what that could look like. And when they approached me, I thought, Oh, this would be pretty interesting, because the indigenous podcasting space down here at the moment, it kind of just exploded during the pandemic, there's a lot more indigenous podcasts out there that you can listen to Now, a lot of them are still talking to our own people about our own experiences, maybe the work that we do. But one of the things that I have seen while going through just to have a bit of a look at what was happening in this space, is that there are very few narrative podcasts in there at the moment. So I think I'd like to see the diversity of where that's going to go. At the moment. It's still sort of, you know, you have the guests and those question and answer but I'd love to see with a narrative form takes a hold and how we can use that to tell our stories, because I think we have, you know, it's innate in what we do. We are storytellers. And I think it would be really interesting to see what that form could look like, in an indigenous way and in from an indigenous perspective, but you know, it's quite a new space. Well, you know, why have podcasts that aren't necessarily audio on demand on radio, so they're not radio shows or indigenous radio programming that is then being turned into a podcast. They're indigenous creators making their own podcasts having their own conversations. So I mean, I've been a fan of IndigenousX for a very long time, I was a follower to start with on Twitter. And what I really loved about it was IndigenousX stands for indigenous excellence. So when it started, it was about highlighting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who were out there doing things of excellence, you know, and trying to show, we're out there doing the day to day we're out there, teaching, whether we're in the health profession, whether we're in journalism, you know, what community work is going on that all of those voices kind of matter, because they're all creating something that's much bigger, and they're working for our communities on our behalf. And so I, you know, like everyone else, I started to follow the IndigenousX account, I got to see the different hosts that come through every week, because it's a guest rotational platform, and it was one of the first to pop up on Twitter. And since then, a lot of people have taken that model and are using it. And I just liked what it was trying to do. So I just logged on as a follow up, and was just blown away, I suppose, by the depth and breadth of the voices that I was hearing and the work that people were doing, no matter how big or small, just to be able to hear what their experiences were or where they came from, or how they grew up. Like I love all of that. And I particularly love it when they tweet a photo of where they're from, as well and explain certain other things if I haven't been to that part of Australia. And it was just, I think that elevation of the diversity of our voice. I think so often, there's this generic view of that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people all say the same, you know, we all think the same things, we all agree on the same things, when really, we have different opinions like everybody else, we like different things. We talk about other things that aren't just about our indigeneity as well, we were just talking about Netflix before, obviously, you know, but showing that we're human as well, you know that our lives aren't just about being indigenous. So therefore our hobbies aren't just about being indigenous, they're about supporting indigenous. But like you, we mow the lawn, we take our children to school, we have cats, you know, we talk about other things. But it's the indigeneity, that brings us all together as one. So I think for me having that voice and having a platform that had that voice. And at the time, too, it was very new as well, The Guardian had just entered the Australian market. And one of the first things that they did was come to IndigenousX and say, Hey, we'd like to partner with you because they too wanted to elevate the voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the commentary space, and in their comment is free space that they have. And so what that opened up was that the host each week got to write an article for The Guardian. And I don't know, of any, you know, there's been no other partnership where that has really happened where is being a weekly column from an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person about whatever it is that they're doing, and about a topic of their choice and what they wish to speak about. And so I think that was a bit of a game changer as well, in terms of it wasn't just us talking to those who wanted to hear from us. But we're in a different realm where people may not have discovered us before might not have known how to access information that they might have been looking for just to hear an indigenous perspective. So I think that was quite big, particularly in the print online area. So yeah, a bit of a fan who's now staff it's very different being on the other side in a way. 

TraeAnna Holiday  8:41  

Oh, absolutely. I bet it is. And, and I hear you talking a lot there about indigenous folks, can you help our audience understand what those metrics really look like? Is that about rooted in places that, you know, beyond ethnicity or color help us understand the identity portions there that you just speak up?

Rhianna Patrick  9:02  

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that's quite unique about Australia that sometimes isn't understood, because it is very different to other indigenous groups is that we have two very culturally distinct indigenous groups in this country. So we have Aboriginal Australians who, again, generic term, generic term but one that prides colonization over 250 language groups. You know, there are many nations there are many tribes as part of that, who mainly live on mainland Australia, but also some of the islands just off the coast of Australia too. And then you have Torres Strait Islanders, and so Torres Strait Islanders, a group, a small group that traditionally live in the islands between the tip of Cape York which is the pointy part of Queensland, and the pointy part of Australia. There's a body of water and then there's PNG. And so our islands is situated between the tip of Australia and where PNG is, and we have some islands that are practically perfect. The cost of PNG as well. So that international border line goes right up to about sort of two kilometers off the PNG coast in terms of where the Australian line to PNG fits. And we have traditional trading between PNG and Torres Strait Island.

TraeAnna Holiday  10:16  

And PNG is what Papa New Guinea?

Rhianna Patrick  10:18  

Papua New Guinea. Yep, sorry, I should have probably said that. Yeah, so Papa New Guinea. And we, we discovered the reason I called the tar sands, we were discovered by a Portuguese explorer, if you like discovered, you know, in the 1600s. So yeah, we have a very different culture to Aboriginal people. But again, we have those similarities. You know, there are similarities in protocols. But again, we also have our own clan groups, we have our own villages, you know, the bloodline to your island is extremely important. And then at certain points, we've migrated down to the Australian mainland. So I have always grown up on Aboriginal land I grew up on towards the pointy end of Queensland, on Cape York. And my dad lives between the islands and those communities at the top of Cape York as well. And so for me, I know where I'm from, I know the islands that I have a connection to, but like most Torres Strait Islanders, I live on the mainland. And that was, you know, a migration that happened at certain points for employment for education. So at the moment, there's probably about six to 8000 Torres Strait Islanders still living in the islands, probably about $30,000, that identify on the mainland, and then you know, then we've got the Aboriginal population in that. So altogether, we make up just sort of over 3% of the Australian population at the moment, but we live in all different areas. But that's the distinct cultural differences between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, which is why you often see us together in policy, while when we talk about ourselves, we talk about that distinctiveness and often will identify with what nation we're from, or what clan we're from, you know, just so people know where we're from, but I hope that helped explain the differences.

TraeAnna Holiday  11:59  

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, so much of the work. When I think about it, it does it falls on those of us who are like indigenous folks who are land, those who have had to make, you know, ways out of no ways. I mean, when we talk about what you even just said there about being discovered, right? by the Portuguese. I mean, I think that's really important, because that history around kind of the colonization really have so much of our land and people and, you know, institutions, ideologies is a real thing. And when I think about a lot of the center of my work here in Washington State, but really nationally for the US, so much of it is about understanding the rich brilliance that is already within the people that has been kind of overlooked for a long time. And so I know, with regard to how, you know, you're looking to do this media and have a strong voice, what is your thorough line in that, you know, what keeps you grounded in terms of the importance of these stories and building these narratives so that, you know, the rest of Australia can learn from it?

Rhianna Patrick  13:06  

Yeah, look, I think for me, I, I started in indigenous media. So we're really quite lucky in Australia. And I'm always amazed a little bit at the reactions that I get when people realize the breadth and depth that we have here of the things that we've created over the last 40 years. And so we're really lucky in Australia to have an indigenous radio network in a way. And we have an indigenous radio station in every capital city in Australia bar, Canberra, our national capital. So every state and territory there is a metropolitan indigenous radio station, but then there are hundreds more in that 1000s more. And so I think at the moment is about 150 or so indigenous radio stations that broadcast across the country all together, we have a national indigenous Radio Service network that was set up when indigenous broadcasting was really in its infancy here. And it allowed people when they were trying to get a full time radio license to be able to have programming on it 24 hours from all different parts of the country so they could dip into what was on the satellite and take programming where they might not have enough volunteers yet where they might not have money to pay people to broadcast. So it was a way of keeping the station on air in that aspirant It was called an aspirant license at the time, to be able to show that they could fulfill having a radio station and making it work and that they could have programming around all times of the day and night. And so we're lucky to have that as well. And then we've got a number of different indigenous print media and we also have a lot of online that has popped up in indigenous sex as part of that online move as technological advances have changed and it's become easier for us to get our voices out. So for me, I started at an indigenous radio station in my early career, they were the first person to give me a job. And so for me it really embedded like I got a very good understanding of what the history was in that sector of who those first radio stations were who those people were that went Hey, what We need to start our own radio stations, we're not being heard, let's start our own. So that's how that happened. And then from there, people learnt how to do television. So then that's how we got national indigenous television, which is nitv here, and we went into television. But I think for me, I do what I do, because I always wanted to see more of me on the television. So I grew up with one channel in a very remote community. And the only channel I had was the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, or the ABC, ABC, Australia. And I from probably really young, maybe I was six or seven wanting to work for the ABC, that was the only job I wanted to do. I don't know if you're a fan of Doctor Who. But Doctor Who was a big part of me deciding to become a journalist. Because as I was growing up, I had the fourth Doctor Tom Baker, and his companion was Sarah Jane Smith, the journalist and I thought, well, if I become a journalist, I'll be able to travel around in the TARDIS, how great could that be. And so I always just wanted to be a journalist because of that. But also, because I recognized that I didn't see myself on television news, which is what I would watch a lot of as a younger person. And I wanted to tell our stories, because I felt like we were always portrayed in a negative light, I was always, I always felt like we would portray through stereotypes through assumption. And I wanted to break that down. So for as long as I could remember, it's what I wanted to do. I went to university, got my degree. And then I ended up getting my dream job and starting as a news and current affairs cadet for the ABC. And it was just like, oh, wow, this is happening, this is happening. And a lot of the work that I did in that was again, about giving us a voice giving Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders a voice. So I was often doing stories on indigenous Australia, trying to work out how to get them into news bulletins, as well as doing the work that I had to do. But then I ended up working on one of our national indigenous radio programs on the ABC, which has had a long history, it turned 30 last year, and speaking out was one of the programs that I grew up knowing about it was based in Brisbane, which is where I ended up my family moved here when I was 10. And I'd grown up knowing who those people were on air. And I knew who the Torres Strait Islander broadcaster was on that program. And, you know, I knew I was related to them. And so, you know, I've spent a long time working in indigenous media and elevating the voices of indigenous Australia. And I think that's just always been a mission. For me, I don't know if it ever was a conscious decision, I think it just was a part of the work that I was trying to do and wanting to do. And the reason why I got into journalism, but I think what I've discovered is part of that, you know, towards the end of my career, for the last five years before I left the ABC late last year, I was working on a mainstream non indigenous Sunday night national program, talking about everything from, you know, archeology, to cult films to everything in between, but always making sure that my playlists, I was really lucky, I could pick my own playlist, then my playlist actually had some color in it indigenous artists being played indigenous artists from elsewhere. So I'm always using that in a very sneaky way, I suppose to introduce the audience to groups that unless they googled them, they probably didn't know, though, are Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander or indigenous from somewhere else or an artist of color, because I would never really say that sometimes I would just play it and say what the feedback was. And yeah, so I think it's just always been a mission, but one that I suddenly realized a while ago that in a mainstream organization, while it's nice to have that ambition to make change, and to try to make change, it's not easy. And it takes a lot out of you to constantly do that day in day out and to be that voice. Because sometimes you're the only voice in that area. You're the only voice speaking up when something's not right. Or if something has been written incorrectly, or someone's name has been misspelled because you're getting it from community sometimes, and particularly if it's a Brisbane story, and the community knows that you're there, they'll renew to get it fixed. So it's kind of that background relationship that I don't think your non indigenous colleagues ever see. Because they're not the ones necessarily getting that feedback directly. And then when you pass it on, they seem surprised. But you're like, well, this is how it works. They're not going to come directly to you. Sometimes if they know someone, they'll go through that person. And I realized a while ago that like for me, I don't think you can make change in a mainstream media organization. I don't think it matters if you have a million in one indigenous staff and a lot of people of color in an organization. If you don't address the structures that exists and the systems that are in place. Change can't be made. You know it's falling on deaf ears. What you're doing is smoking mirrors because you're not actually affected. addressing the problem that exists because you're set up on a system that was meant to exclude us, you were set up on a system that you know, when you learn about journalism, and you kind of get that grounding of the history of it, you know that, particularly in the UK, it was white rich men who entered newspapers, you know, you know that even in your own country, women on air, is something that was unheard of, for many years, was unheard of, for many decades. And I mean, I know those non Indigenous women who are the people that opened that door for me to even be on air just as a woman. And then I know that people who, you know, when it comes to intersectionality, and something that, you know, again, has to be taken into account when you're in a workplace of how that all plays out as well. You know, I know the people who have opened the door so that I could be an indigenous woman on air or a Taurus Strait Islander woman on it, I can name the toaster on the broadcast as I've come after, and they probably fit on one hand, because we're such a small group of people trying to represent our community as well. But we're there for everyone, whether it be Aboriginal community, we're there for the Torres Strait Islander community, we're even there for the South Sikh community. You know, the South Sea Islander communities, one here in Australia that they have a long history to, you know, these are people who came to Australia because they would keep that the term was black birding. So they would be taken off beaches on Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, various places in the South Pacific, to come and work on our sugarcane fields here. And in Queensland, I came here in the sort of mid to late 1800s, to work on a cotton plantation, you know, so we have a lot of South Sea Islander connections within our families, because we've intermarried, you know, that's also a part of our identity and knowing what they've been through too, because they were pretty much brought here as slaves, you know, to work in our industries as well and stolen from their own country. So a lot of them don't know exactly where they're from sometimes, or where their families come from, you know, and that's a long journey. So, you know, sometimes we're also there for picking up that story, particularly to because we live with these communities as well. You know, we interact with these communities, and we have connections to these communities. And so I think, going forward, I strongly believe now and have for I think the time that I've been dissecting all of this and thinking about this, that we can only make change with our own media, and that we can only make change with building the capacity of the skills that we have in that sector. But also what it is that we choose to do, and how we choose to amplify the voice and how we choose to tell our stories, and how we choose to take back that news narrative in a way and really own own it more. But I think there's a lot that needs to happen for us to get to that point, you know, but that's the dream. I mean, that's the dream snowman when why I think things like IndigenousX are important. And when I see these new media organizations starting up, or people doing different things in this space, because they feel that there's a need there is that I think the time has come where I don't think we need to go over to that other side anymore to you know, while it's great that you go there and you learn your skills, I think there's this need now that we need to invest those skills in a place where we know we can try to make that change. And I think I think Black Lives Matter. And even though we've sort of had a Black lives matter movement in Australia, which is Black deaths in custody here for many, many years, many decades. I think that that has galvanized the rest of the community that maybe didn't understand it, it kind of I think they kind of brought the mean, in a way. But what I'm hoping is that from the momentum that they feel from BLM that they'll then have an understanding of Black deaths in custody, and what our movement is here, but that that also start to go, maybe I should be looking for different alternatives in the way that I'm educated and the opinions and the perceptions and lens that I'm being told that story from. So I'm hoping that that momentum moves across all of those spaces, and particularly the indigenous media space that they start to say that we've been doing this for a long time, you just haven't bothered tuning in.

TraeAnna Holiday  24:15  

Yeah, thank you so much for that deep, rich history, particularly for myself and the audience. Because, again, you said so many things there that are so similar to my lived experience as a Black American in America, right and literally a descendant of slaves, and what that actually means in terms of, you know, my lived experience and sharing I mean with a sister girl all the way in Australia and it's it's phenomenal to hear so many of the similarities because that is exactly why we start doing things like this for me. The podcast was so important but I also work with converge media and we do morning updates show our own new show every day Monday through Friday. Friday. And it really was because as me and my co hosts were banging our heads trying to get ourselves into major media, you know, it was clear that the antiquated nature in which they work and the ways that they produce news and the ways that they get news from the wire actually wasn't incorporating our stories or our lived experience or narratives. And ultimately, you are right, in terms of being that I always say, like the chocolate chip and the sugar cookie, but it's like, you know, it's like, literally, you're the one that are maybe there's a couple more that are representing and then if you have colleagues who, you know, may may share your, you know, upbringing, or you know, your ethnicity or roots, but yet they're okay to toe the line. And to not be, you know, saying, Wait a minute, what's up with that, or, you know, just dealing with the micro aggressions every day and my just going home, and it complained that their spouse or, you know, taking it out in different ways. But when you really want to change certain things, I understand exactly where you're coming from. And so, you said there was a Black lives matter movement there in Australia. And I know when we were talking, you were letting me know a little bit about the term Black in Australia, I want to give you a little bit of time to explain that too. Because it's not just necessarily a Black or white issue. And I want you to be able to explain that also for our audience.

Rhianna Patrick  26:22  

Yes. So I think what I find interesting is when I'm overseas, and I'm talking to other indigenous peoples, really Australia, we collapse those Black follows, you know, we talk about all the Black followers, we refer to what we do is Black. And I know that sometimes that's very different in different parts of the world. And what I've come to realize is that it's not really a term used by other indigenous groups that I've interacted with, particularly from Canada, brown people show, but they don't necessarily call themselves Black. So they have other words that they use. And so I found that quite interesting. And something that I've been thinking a little bit more about about where our use of just the word Black comes from. And to be honest, I think it really has its roots embedded in a way in the way that we learned our political activism here. And I say we in terms of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, you know, and if I think about really, you know, sort of Aboriginal history more so as someone who's also had to learn that history, that movement of, of making change here of activism was very much learnt from the Black civil rights movement in the US, you know, you had the Freedom Rides there, we had the Freedom Rides here. So you know, you had the Black Panther Party here, we eventually had the Black Panther Party here to talking about the political party, not the film, which I think if you're a young person, you might not understand this. There's two Black panthers. Yeah, we have to explain to my 17 and 16 year old nieces when I was talking, they're like, Are you talking about the movie? I'm like, No, I'm not talking about the movie. Oh, how did I forget? Sorry, different terminology. Yeah, but I think it comes from that, because we always had conversations with African Americans that would come to Australia, we learnt things, we read books, you know, we very much lert different types of activism from the different people that we interacted with. But I think it's very heavily US based in a way, which I think is where we get this notion of Blackness from, in a way, and we've since dropped the sea as well. So when we talk about "Blak" Australia, it's B-L-A-K, which is destiny Deacon, who came up with the decolonizing of that word, one of our artists, and so it's a term that's slowly kind of being used here. It's something that I've thought about because I was in high school in the 90s. Good time. And you know, before the internet, there were very few examples of Black or brown people on TV. And mostly, you would say, African American kittens. You know, that's the music, you would say, it's the movies that you would say, so you would know who those people were. And I think we just naturally gravitated towards, oh, there's another brown person on the screen. You know, we get that we attach ourselves to that. But I think we are, you know, we are very rooted. Sometimes in African American culture. We know a lot about that contemporary culture. But we also know a lot about the history too, in a way because it's, again, tied to those examples that we can see here in our own histories. But I think there's a time to now where we have to think about, well, what does that all mean? You know, well, we can have like, I'm having this conversation with you, as an African American woman. But I can also have this conversation with a Canadian indigenous person or Maori in New Zealand, because again, that's that commonality that we all share being brown and black skinned people. But I think it's also looking at, okay, we've had these, we've got our own media coming up. We've got our own ways of seeing ourselves on the screen in film, here's hearing ourselves on the radio. So what does that mean in an indigenous context? You know, if we can name, you know, if we want to grow up and be a basketball, and we can name an African American NBA player, which I know we can also name a Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander NBA player now, but can we do that with an indigenous person from somewhere else? Who is also in the NBA? You know, can we pull out those examples? other indigenous peoples, whether they're our own or from somewhere else that we can aspire to be like, or to aspire to do similar things that they've done? So, you know, an example that I use, Trey is probably look, I've had many conversations about Tyler Perry and his studio, and what that absolutely means and what that could look like here. And would we actually have that and just hypothesizing about all of those different things? But then I think, okay, that's great. I can name him as an African American male, but can I name an indigenous person who might have done that as well? Can I name you know, who are those indigenous media companies in the same realm as maybe? Or maybe Stevie Wonder and you know, starting his own radio station, you know, we all know about that. 

But, you know, what, what are those examples, and there are examples that you have a ptn, in Canada, you have Maori TV in New Zealand, there are these examples around the world. But I don't think you know, I'm yet to sort of see whether where those media conglomerates where those media companies are coming out, you know, or where I can say, you know, instead of saying, and I think that's the thing, I don't know if you noticed this to Trey, that, you know, and I think that's part of maybe thinking about decolonizing, the way that you talk about things, too, and it's a process, it is a process, but where you go, this indigenous artist is like the Black Elvis, or the Black, Bob Dylan, and you're like, I'm pretty sure there's probably a Black person or a brown person that we could say that about, but we constantly go to the, to the non indigenous example, you know, or to the non Black example. And I think that's part of it, too, isn't it? Why are we comparing ourselves to what a white person is doing in a way? Why aren't we thinking about, oh, who's that indigenous person, I can hold up Who's that other person of color that I can hold up in a different country that's doing their thing that we all talk about, that we all know about? Or that we've discovered some way in the world, that is social media, where you can discover people now who might not have, again, the mainstream media voice behind them elevating that voice, so that you don't worry about them? You know, so I, I've been thinking a lot about how I talk about that in an aspirational way. For my nieces and nephews. I have one who's 17. I've got another nephew who just started high school as of two days ago, I don't know where the time went, you know, and I've got a lot of other, you know, all ranging nieces and nephews, as well. And I think about like when I'm talking to them about influences and inspiration. And I know that they too, are tied to very much the African American experience. And I'm trying to get them because they're both Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander my nieces and nephews, from you know, my brother. And so I'm trying to get them to know their Torres Strait side, but to also understand their Aboriginal side to like, they've got to know these histories together, but how they work together, how they're so different. But also, they are such big fans of Jessica Mauboy, who is probably one of our best known Aboriginal artists, he is signed to a major record company was in the sapphires which went internationally. But they you know, they grew up seeing her as young kids. So that was their experience of seeing someone put up and they love seeing her we went to a concert of hers recently. They've loved her since they were like, toddlers. But I love that I can have that explanation that if they want to be a singer, I can go well, you could be Jessica Mauboy. You know, I can use that example. But I don't have to keep using examples that I think I have to use it. Does that make sense? Is that something that you think about? 

TraeAnna Holiday  33:51  

Absolutely. I think we talked about it often here in terms of just uplifting the brilliance of our people. And that's what that's really what it boils down to ultimately, and, you know, in the realms that I work in with King County equity now stemming from my work with Africa town, I mean, we're rooted in that, right? It's just the root of it, and also at converged media, really rooted in understanding and being able to stand on the shoulders of that brilliance. And so we have to understand it, particularly up here in the Pacific Northwest, where we have small numbers as well, right? We're about six to 7% of the population here in Washington State. And yet, when you think about the disparity numbers, we're in the tops, we're at 60% of this and 45% of that, and it's like but how when we are such a small amount of the population, yet it's clear that there's been a lot of policy, a lot of institutional systemic ways that they grew that really have not benefited us as a people. So absolutely, you're right about that. 

(Music)

Trae Holiday 35:01  

Now it's time for the Chime In. In this segment, we bring in voices from our community to see what they have to say.

Cashayla Rodgers  35:10  

My name is Cashayla Rogers. I'm a youth organizer with King County Equity Now as well as with Africatown. The majority of the news and information that I consume comes directly from the citizen journalist and community news outlets. I have found that community journalists carry a level of discernment, community context, and authenticity to report on the news that major media outlets don't navigate with community journalists offer spice and entertainment by leading with that authenticity that is easily relatable and digestible for the viewership. Mainstream media and news outlets have and continue to fail at this. Because of the corporations that control them, that filter what can be said and how it can be delivered. If those corporations can control the news, they can control the minds of the people. And with that power, they have the ability to influence how we vote, what we buy, really what and how we think. I love that community. Journalists often are not motivated by money, or the need for power, but are motivated by the culture. 

TraeAnna Holiday  36:37  

And now back to the show. 

(Music)

TraeAnna Holiday  36:43  

And when we think about the kind of equity that needs to be infused in media, it is clear from a global scale, right, I think about how there's this explosion in Nigeria, they call it you know, like, Nollywood, you know, like, they have their own, you know, kind of that they're just - and they're just churning out film after film. And it's like, it's because we can do it right. And no matter what, at the end of the day, now all of those folks get to look at these examples of producers and actors and actresses and singers that are part of this entire media stream now in their own right. So I think you're just hitting the nail on the head here, when you think about the ways that we have to do it. Now, that's also a part of what we take on and put on our backs, right, just like you were saying, you are part of the major media stream, I came from major media down here in five news. And for me, it was like, Alright, how much can I do here that I could like, take back somewhere else? So I loved hearing you say that. And also talking about that, just kind of breaking down the the colonization that happens in our own mind. Again, I think it goes back to education. And so I'm always thinking about the ways that we were informed as young people right to understand what success even looks like, right? And and when we start breaking down what that is, and what it's not, we learn so much more in the process. So what are some of the things that you're really hoping to bring with your new role here at IndigenousX, that will help allow folks like your nieces, you know, to really see themselves as a part of furthering that change in media in Australia?

Rhianna Patrick  38:33  

Look, I think it's one of the things I have been trying to think about a lot, because I think, I don't know, if you've had this same experience, but you lose yourself in mainstream media, you lose the sense in a way of who you are, because there's a certain style that you need to kind of talk in, there's a certain, you know, certain vibe, you know, for a radio program, even that you kind of have to fit into, they want you to be yourself, but they don't want you to be yourself. You know, there's this I feel like what I've been I've think I've been authentic with myself, but what I put out on air is the version that I have always felt that is what the version of what they want, you know that it's not really the real me because I don't know if they could have handled the real Eva, but I never felt like it was the genuine May I would share my stories. And that was the genuine part of what I could bring to that space of talking about, you know, whether it was growing up up north or whether it was something about you know, memories of my grandmother, my non indigenous grandmother who taught me to how to bake you know, those sorts of things, where I felt there was a bit of me in that, but I came out feeling like I had completely suppressed who I was as a Torres Strait Islander like I I felt like I couldn't even really wear my Torres Strat Islander flag earrings during NAIDOC week, which is our big Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander week here in July in the office and be proud of who I was because I didn't feel safe doing that. And these are things that once you extricate yourself from that and you think back and look at this version of where you stand at that point, I realized how much of my own self I had kept to myself. And I wondered if that was a coping mechanism. And I wondered if that was about realizing that they didn't understand who I was. So I'm not going to put that out there and feel unsafe, putting myself out there, you know, because of the looks that I get while wearing my earrings or wearing a shirt that said, still here, or whatever it was, you know, it just, it's a hard one. Because I, I realized that I have learned journalism in a very Western context, I have learned it in a non indigenous context. And so what I'm trying to do now is to strip away keep the skill that I've learned, but stripping away Why I do the things that I do and why I do things in certain ways, because I've been taught in a mainstream non indigenous way. And so for IndigenousX and what that audio and podcast stream can look like, I really want to try to work out, how do I write that script differently? How do I you know, and I recognize that it might not happen in the first series that we bring out, I recognize it might not happen in the second series that I bring out. And then it's going to be a process because I'm trying to strip away 40 plus years of being taught in a certain way of being made to feel like I need to be a certain way in order to be employed and be educated. And you know, all of those sorts of things that tie into that, that I'm now wondering, what is the indigenous voice? How would we do this? How would we, from a more organic place, do this? And what does that look like, while still maintaining? People won't listen to a two hour thing? But how do we use the you know, the western constructs of time? But how do we tell that story? How do we bring out who we are innately? But also what are those conversations that we're not having? What are those conversations that we haven't seen yet? You know, what are those gaps of things that I'm hearing on the periphery? Or that's intriguing to me about what the future of that might be? Or so I think there's Yeah, I think what I'm trying to create with IndigenousX is bringing some of those conversations that we aren't yet having, and bringing, I think somebody that's thought provoking, I want it to be thought provoking. I want people like when I listen to, to your podcast, and I'm like, Oh, well, yes, yes, you know, and the penny drops, you have those moments, the penny drops, the light goes on. I want that as well. You know, I think that's, that's where I'm heading at the moment is that I want it to be around thought I want it to be where people think I want it to be thought provoking. And I want it to raise something different that people hadn't thought of before. I think that's, I think that's kind of where I'm heading with that. And hopefully, along that way of trying to do that, I can find that more organic voice of who I am and where that sits. But I don't know if you had that as well try. I mean, did you have to strip yourself back to the failure to shed the light?

TraeAnna Holiday  43:01  

No, no, you're absolutely right. That's why it's so amazing talking to you. And we're so far away, really. But the truth is, is that the thorough line is so there it is, like we're totally on the same minds often. And you know, I find myself a lot of the time trying to make sure that I'm not speaking and it's just too passionate. But I am, you know, I'm passionate about my people. I'm passionate about Black liberation. And when I have to be so moderate in that it really does make me feel some type of way, right where I'm like, that's not really how I wanted that to come out. Or right now for us. We have our mayor of the city of Seattle is not going to go for her term again. And so we're beginning to interview these candidates. And I find myself wanting to ask certain questions, but then not wanting to like rein them over the coals. And then I'm like, but no, why, like are people do deserve these answers. And ultimately, there has been a lack of real accountable leadership in the Black community, particularly in the central district where, you know, we saw gentrification come in, for profit developers come in and wreck our city, you know, it went from over 80% Black folks and living in ownership to now less than 10%. And, you know, we know that that was planned. We understand that that happened, you know, 1520 years before it actually began to wreck and settle in our neighborhoods where we saw, you know, people walking up to folks homes with blank checks and saying, Hey, you know, I don't see a for sale sign. But if you're willing to sell me this property, you know, we'll give you 300,000 right now, and then the next thing you know, it becomes, you know, four and five townhouses. They've made millions of dollars on the development and the folks that own that land previously got pennies on the dollar. And when you see that over and over and over again and even my family suffered through that because my parents weren't able to afford to live there and keep us where we grew up, right. And so we moved all the way to South King County town called Federal Way. And my parents bought a beautiful home in Federal Way. But still, it took us out of where we were rooted. And I think about Dr. Mindy Foley loves book route shock, which is a great book on this, because you realize that there are so many elements when you talk about uprooting people from what they know, where they really planted their roots. And that it's like, you can't really put that somewhere else, you know, those roots are dry up. And we experience that on a personal level through trauma, you know, mental health issues, substance abuse issues is experienced in so many different ways. And so you're absolutely right, with regard to, you know, how I have seen myself in media and wanting to really begin to break down and dismantle a lot of that and, and we talked about it peeling back an onion, you know, so many times, there's so many different layers to peel back. And I I sometimes honestly, Rianna, I find it difficult to do the news, parts of news, because it disproportionately affects our people so much, you know, I experienced this on air at times, and I'm just like, No, I'm done being you know, politically correct about this, or I'm done saying this in a moderate way that is going to allow everybody to just be like, Oh, yeah, let me think about that, know, that our sense of urgency on our people globally, is real. And so it's hard for me sometimes to diminish that passion that I feel because I am connected to my community, I can tell you are as well, when you talk about really, again, taking these stories and putting those disparities on our backs, as you know, groundbreaking that we want to be. And you're right, there's plenty of Black folks in media hear plenty of Black folks on the major screen, plenty of Black folks like Tyler Perry producing their own content. But really telling the stories of our people is a different thing. One thing Tyler Perry said that I really appreciate was with regard to the award ceremonies here, right and making his stories acceptable in those realms. Right that, hey, you know, how come you don't care about Oscars? or this or that in any way? Man? I'm telling the stories for my people. Ultimately, I'm not I don't care about that. He used some curse words... Yeah, it's just, you know, period, being unapologetically Black. And I think that there is a resurgence of this, because I think so many of our people, sometimes when I think about the vast majorities of folks and the ways that the ideologies break down, right, we have these amazing HBCUs, I went to Howard, one of the best ones, right? Amazing HBCUs here, but a lot of it is still about assimilation, unfortunately, because in order for you to benefit off of capitalism, right, I go back to that, it really is that you have to, to a certain degree, you have to tote the lines, yeah, you can be your Black, beautiful self, as long as it's still making white corporate dollars, right, then you can do that, they'll give you the the green light, as long as you are promoting companies that then are not owned by Black people. And maybe sometimes you can write and maybe sometimes you do this work to, you know, kind of keep the door open type of thing, right? Like, I'll be the first one through, and I'm gonna keep the door open for, you know, young Black women who look like me or young Black men who are like me when I think about the NBA or sports, but a lot of the times it goes back to ownership. And I'm at a point, to be honest, Rhianna, maybe this is toward the end of the season for us, and I get it. But I'm really at a point of like, Nah, if we don't talk about these things head on, we'll just become replicas of them, right, we will just replicate the same systems that really brought us into these places of disparity. And so I think you're just so right, everything you're saying because it's about the authenticity. And it's about us being able to be who we really are, and not be ashamed of that and not have to work in the guise of, you know, whatever, white corporate America or white corporate Australia, whatever it is, right? Where it's just like, Hey, wait a minute, like that doesn't actually fit me, and I need to create something else that will fit me right so that it can experience all of men who are - 

Rhianna Patrick  49:24  

Yeah, I think one of the things that you've touched on there, I mean, you know, I grew up knowing all about HBCUs. You know, I grew up knowing about how I have a non indigenous mother, who would you know, put these ways of seeing myself in a way not maybe me exactly, but other brown Black people, where she would talk to me about these things so that I would know about them and learn about them. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned that because I had a conversation not long ago. So here we talk very much about culturally safe spaces. So when you feel culturally safe in a workplace, you don't feel scared to be who you are in a way, and I'm pretty sure it's a term that comes from the Maori in New Zealand, and it's it was used in a health context about creating these culturally safe spaces. So that mob would come and would have access to health and feel like they were safe enough being in that space to talk about their health in a way. And so I think, you know, for me, when I talk about culturally safe spaces, I was talking to someone about this about how culturally unsafe I felt in this space that I worked. And they said to me, I don't understand this concept. And I said to him, yeah, that's because you, you were really lucky that you went from the start of your schooling all the way through to the end of high school, at an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander independent school, you were in a culturally safe space in those really important formative years of your life, and then only came into kind of the non indigenous space in a way when you started University and your work life. You know, and so he was we kind of had this conversation, and he was kind of, like, yeah, I've never thought of that like that I've never thought of, of what that is. And I said, but that's why you're so strong in who you are. Because you've never had to hide it or feel as though you couldn't show it. Because where you've been has always allowed you like they've encouraged that to happen. And I think that's really interesting when you talk about that, the juxtaposition of that to, of being able to go to, you know, a historically Black university or college, and what that presents in, you know, in a way allowing yourself to sit in who you are. But then understanding that there are these external forces that mean, that's not really a proper experience of sitting in who you are, you know, and what could that experience look like if it was funded by Black business, if it was funded by African American business, businesses of color? for that to be the the real experience in that and what that could look like? And it's Yeah, it's interesting, because we have just had sawn off on and you know, I still look at that system and think, oh, when will we have any, you know, in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander University in this country? Like, is that a thing that we could have? Is that something that we could achieve? But we've just had signed off actually, in the community that I grew up in, when I moved from Cape York to Brisbane, where we're going to have an indigenous hospital, the first one in the country? You know, and that's, again, something that, could I have envisaged that? I don't think so. Like, I don't I don't know. But I'm grateful that it's happening. And, you know, it fills me with Wow, like, what is the future that my nieces and nephews are going to have? where they can be treated in an indigenous hospital? You know, they've been treated in an indigenous Medical Center, what will it be when they can be treated in an indigenous hospital? And then what is the flow on from that? So I think you're right, that genuine voice, and I can I can completely understand what Tyler Perry is talking about when it comes to awards. My need for getting into journalism was not to win our topic journalism award here, which is called the war play. I had no, there is nothing in me that wants to win a Walkley? Because then I'm asking for, again, acceptance from a non indigenous space, that really hasn't really included me in that. So I would rather win something was that was an indigenous journalism, what, from my own peers, you know, that's what I would want. And so I completely understand that need, that you don't do this for the awards, you do this for your community. And I mean, I've worked so long in a mainstream organization up until now, that there's probably a lot of people who don't know how many indigenous people work in that organization. Because we're not visible, we're not shown and our jobs don't allow us to be embedded in community where we would like to be, because our jobs are made to be in an office talking to people down the phone, having these very superficial relationships. And I think what they don't get is that that passion that we bring trade to the job, and that skill that we bring to do the job, it needs to be recognized, because it's not easy, you know, negotiating the politics within your own community is a skill in itself of not getting yourself in the middle of it, of trying to tell both sides of trying to not make it as we say here, a Black on Black issue. You know, I've tried to allow all parties to have a voice of trying to still be transparent in that and to still be unbiased in that. But it's a cultural negotiation. I think you said that the other day when we were chatting briefly, that it is this court, you're right, it is this cultural negotiation. But if I was a economics expert, I would be renumerated and recognized for that, but because I'm deemed as, and I don't call myself an indigenous expert, that's not what I am. But in the space of radio, when you're dealing and reporting on your own community, you are, in a way an indigenous specialist in how to have that conversation. in understanding the protocols. You need to have that conversation of forming a longer term. relationship that is more than that five minute interview more than that hour interview, you might end up having a conversation for two hours, and you only need 30 minutes. But that's how long it takes to get to that real place of what I've been seeing a lot online lately of real talk of the talk that we have, when we are properly connected. And it's not a give and take relationship, which is how journalism is, what can you give me? I'm giving you a platform, but what can you give me, you know, we need the reciprocity to come back in that, that we're dealing with other humans, we're dealing with other people from our communities, and those relationships are gonna last longer than other ones, you know, because we operate in a different way, that after reading a lot of those threads on Twitter, about real talk recently about the miscommunication, I understand it so much better now of why certain things have happened during my career, and why there's been this lack of understanding. But I think, try until those of us that work in that mainstream area are recognized for the skill that we bring and renumerated properly for that skill that we bring, and that it's not taken for granted, they will never understand what it is that we can offer, that we are giving that and the perspective and the lens that we are lending to that and how much better it could make their coverage. How much you know better it would be for the community from just a health point of view, you know, because I don't think they understand how all of that is interlinked for us, that it's you know, it's all holistic in the ways that if we see ourselves perpetuated in a certain way that is actually going to directly affect our health, that is directly going to affect how we feel how our spirit is, because spirit is so important to this. Just I'm so excited about seeing what is happening, you know, I was hoping for media to have its reckoning, because I don't think it is had his reckoning in a way that other industries have that has been triggered by BLM at the moment. And from what I've seen standing back, you know, at that time, I saw the hashtag #BlackInTheNewsroom, which was a lot of different people of color, sharing their experiences. And at the time, I couldn't share my experience in that hashtag. But it gave me hope that something was happening, where what we had been dealing with internally, you know, as people trying to make change in an organization that doesn't see us, that we would hear those voices would be listened to. And you know, I saw Christine Grenier from Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, the Yukon morning presenter, make a statement on air and then resigned because of the lack and what she called the suppression of indigenous and Black voices by the national broadcaster in Canada. You know, that happened in June last year. Then in August last year, we saw the Black presenter of BBC One extra call out their use of the N word in a media report where a white reporter use the N word multiple times. And then the BBC defended that decision to use the word to which he walked away and said he no longer felt comfortable being a part of that broadcaster. And we know that when we walk away from those jobs, there's not people lining up to give us another one. When we make those decisions, those decisions are very life changing. Because it takes courage to do that. Because you know that that safety net is not there for you that safety net is always there for your non indigenous colleagues, that safety net will always be there for them. But when you walk away and have the courage to speak out about whatever it is that it's going on, and walk away from that job, you might not have a job afterwards, your job might look completely different. You might not be working in the same space. Because we know innately how that works, don't we when we speak out?

TraeAnna Holiday  58:39  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're talking about is exactly why the collective voice is so important. And before I let you go, you know, I have to touch base on this because I'm hearing you talk about the BLM movement. And we saw just a global uproar, you know, in the summer, and I know that it has meant some fundamental shifts in terms of how people have Black, brown, how we deal with things moving forward. I think there was a bit of an awakening globally. That was just like, you know what, no more no longer can we deal with this. And this is why it's important for those who do still feel the need to toe the line. I talk directly to people during the morning update show often and I love doing it even here on equity rising because it is about how equity is rising through the work of folks like you like Clint and so many others, that it is up to us to take that torch and say, no, we're not going to allow another Black death to go in vain. Right and then we're going to take the energy and whether it was George Floyd's death being the tipping point because we had just seen so much of it. It has been wrecked right here in America. And I know it's happening globally, particularly around police brutality, but also just what we are talking about the systemic oppression, the institutional oppression, you know, it's in everything. And it's everywhere that we have to experience it. And so I want to ask you how has that really helped to shape? You know how folks are looking at things kind of differently maybe in Australia with regard to that passion, again, that kind of like, you know, what no longer are we going to deal with this, we got to either utilize our voices, utilize our positions, create new companies, new industries, bring our brilliance to bear here, because we can no longer just sit back and hope that somebody else is going to do the work. 

Rhianna Patrick  1:00:32  

It's really timely that you mentioned all of that I suppose, the global sort of uprising standing in solidarity all around the world against police brutality. And I think, you know, we've just had Invasion Day here, or survival day or January 26, whatever you wish to call it. And I think one of the things that was quite interesting that I saw, particularly with more on social media, was there was a lot of people going, it's nice that you showed up for BLM protests, we expect to see you there at the invasion day, March as well, you know, and a lot of people saying, we saw that you posted a black tile in support. You were very quiet on Jan. 26. So there's a lot of accountability, I think at the moment that's happening, where people have really taken notice of those who put up a black tile, those organizations, those businesses, those theatre companies, those music bodies, whatever it was, and there's a lot of people who are in those active industries is seeing whatever is happening, and still asking for where the follow up is, you know, so I think we've seen some shift in the way that just even the reporting of that, I think, in a way, I think we've seen a shift in people actively going what I need to be seen to, but what we need to see now is the follow up. And so I think in Australia, that's what the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander community and I don't want to like talk about as in one voice, but just from my own point of view of kind of looking and watching what's been happening, I think that's what is being asked for the follow up hasn't happened, you know, we still have Black deaths in custody in this country, we're still losing people in custody, we're still at higher rates of incarceration than anybody else in this country. We've just had a major report come out in The Guardian about youth incarceration rates for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young people in this country, we've just been called out by the UN, I think it was, like 20 plus nations of the UN asking for us to raise the age of criminality, because that hasn't happened. So as a 10 year old child here in Australia, you can be locked up. And we wanted to raise the age to 14, and that decision has been held off. So there was a campaign around that. But we've just recently been called up from the UN, because we haven't followed that. And we haven't, you know, which is a UN convention as well. And so I think, you know, I think the follow up is the thing now that we have to maintain the momentum for a while, it's great that you're outraged. And it's great that you want to make change, you've got to have the cultural intelligence to do that. So you have to do the work. cultural awareness is one thing, but having the cultural intelligence to be able to put that into place is another. And you need to be able to understand that you need to understand the difference between equality and equity. They're not the same. You need to understand what intersectionality is. And if you don't go and say, Professor Kimberly Crenshaw work and understand what that means, you know, but also understand it from an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander feminist point of view to you know, of how that plays out, go to our people who have also picked up on that work and read about it, like you've got to read your own, you've got to support your own, you've got to understand your own history to understand what needs to be changed. But if you're wanting to be an ally, and I use that word, not willy nilly, because I think people are nominate themselves as an ally. And that is not how it works down here. We have to say that you are doing the work to give you that name, you do not get to call that yourself. And I think that's what I want to say from what's been happening is that there's a follow up and that you understand what is happening in your own country first, before you start supporting others. It's great to support others. But if you're not aware of what is happening in your backyard, how do you expect to create change and be a part of the follow up?

TraeAnna Holiday  1:04:18  

Ah, I love that. Absolutely. You know, that's exactly where a lot of my work right now is that it is that, you know, look, I say to folks, if you're at a job and you're experiencing racism, and you're experiencing this and you're not saying anything, you're not speaking up, you're going there day by day because you're on survival mode and need to pay for your kids this and you need to do this and you got to pay bills. I get it. But ultimately, that complacency has led us to where we are today. And it is a real need a real desire of mine to begin to see people I just collectively say, you know what, yeah, I'm not going to take this, I'm not going to do it. And if that means that, I gotta figure something out, just like those folks walking off their jobs, knowing that Yeah, look, you know, another network may not want to hire me, but I'm done with this. And I'm done with kind of the ways that even network work works, right? Like, Hey, I'm done with all of it, right? Like to really understand the beauty is in us creating our own lanes, because really, that is the driver. I talked about how Black culture globally is like the thing, right? And so many people aspire to be like us, cool, whatever, whatever. But ultimately, that's also showcases the leading voice and the leading position that we have as Black folks globally, to stand up against all this. So this has been phenomenal. Rhianna, I know, I can talk to you for hours.

Rhianna Patrick  1:05:55  

I mean, I know I don't. And I think the final point I want to make too, is that if you're seeing yourself vilified, or your community vilified in mainstream media, why are you clicking on it? Why are you giving them the clicks? Why are you tuning into the television? Why are you listening to that particular radio station, unless it's a story that he's actually saying something, you know, I don't understand it. Because if you want to make change, then you need to start thinking about the media that you engage with, and why you engage with it. And what are you willing to put up with, because if you keep doing that, you will make any advertisers happy by clicking on it, you know, the journalist is meeting its KPI that they need to on that online story, we have to start really thinking about what we engage with, as a media consumer, because that also needs to happen. 

TraeAnna Holiday  1:06:42  

I love that I agree with you wholeheartedly. Couldn't agree more. So much of it is about how we literally personalize this walk, right? And all of the work that we have to do alongside it, it really is it is about all of us. It's about us making smarter choices and understanding that we have the power, this is what I'm always saying it's like, it's not a top down thing. It really is from the people. And you're so right to make that point. Because let us just stop buying certain things. I say this all the time. And globally, we could just have all Black folks all over the world Black and brown folks, just Hey, don't buy we now go back to the Alabama bus boycott when you take the money away, because it's your choice, right? It's your choice to do that. And, and we're seeing it globally with the pandemic anyways, you know, people are not being able to afford their rent, or whatever else. And so ultimately, there's a lot of industries that are hurting because money isn't flowing. And so it always goes back to that Rhianna, this has been again, phenomenal. I thank you so much for your time with me today on equity rising, I am looking forward to building relationship with you. And continuing this because the another person in media that really has your lens just gives me hope to know that you know, we're on the right track here. And we may be the first ones to start knocking down these doors and, and making new avenues and pathways for people. But ultimately, we get it and we know what's up. And I appreciate that I appreciate you blessing our audience with all of your passion and work. Again, before we get out of here. How can people experience IndigenousX and maybe begin to connect with it?

Rhianna Patrick  1:08:26  

Yeah, look, IndigenousX obviously is on Twitter, you can search for the hashtag IndigenousX, you can find us on Twitter at IndigenousX. You can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram. And you can read all our articles that indigenousx.com.au become a Patreon you can donate through there as well and you can just engage with a lot of what's happening. So it's pretty easy.

TraeAnna Holiday  1:08:49  

Thank you so much again. You've been phenomenal. This has been great. You guys.

Rhianna Patrick  1:08:53  

Thank you so much Trae. 

TraeAnna Holiday 1:08:55

Yeah, absolutely. You guys have been listening to another episode of equity rising trade holiday with mystery on I'm so excited. This has been phenomenal. Thank you again and thank all of you guys for listening. 

Linnea Ingalls  1:09:08  

Thanks for listening to Equity Rising. Our next episode will be out next week Thursday. Subscribe to get new episodes as soon as they come out. And if you enjoy the podcast or have learned something from these conversations, please tell a friend, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It really helps us get these ideas out there. You can follow King County Equity Now and Trae Holiday on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter. Thanks for tuning in, y'all.