Equity Rising S2 : Episode 4

equity in representation :
WA state rep kirsten harris-talley

In the 2020 elections, six Black women were elected to the Washington State Legislature—tripling the Black female voice in this sector. Rep KHT (as she is known) was elected by the 37th District, which encompasses many Black communities inside Renton, Skyway, and SE Seattle.

In kicking off her legislative career during the pandemic, this lifelong organizer and activist worked smartly alongside her constituents to turn quarantine restrictions into a tool they could use. In EPISODE FOUR, Rep KHT tells Trae how the state's virtual sessions allowed her be more directly in communication with those she serves—and to leave lobbyists out cold.

This episode is a celebration of Harris-Talley's personal strapline: "working to take action with neighbors."

Learn more on Rep KHT's site, and follow along with her on Instagram and Facebook.

King County Equity Now chief of staff and mother, grandmother, and community pillar Emijah Smith provides our Chime In introduction this week. You can watch Emijah in a video conversation with the Seattle Community Police Commission about the future of public safety in Seattle.

This episode was produced and edited by Julia Drachman and mastered by Josh Berl. Description was written by Laura Cassidy. Transcribed by Kayla Imrisek.

Transcript

Emijah Smith  00:02

KHT is my 37th legislative district representative. You know, I do education advocacy and justice reform work. And so to be at a rally and participate with Representative KHT and hear her speak around wanting to learn more, as well as be actionable around Washington State's policies, particularly the crime bill policies, three strikes, just a lot of those policies that we know are steeped in racism and anti-Blackness. And when someone does that and they can speak from a place of authenticity - yeah, I just, I appreciate that. So when she did that at that rally I was like, Okay, I like that spirit. As progressive as Seattle wants to be, or the Pacific Northwest wants to be when it comes to action, we're not so progressive. I think that KHT is an equity changemaker because she wants to put words into action. But I - but at the same time, I'm still you know, in my evaluation. So far, so good, you know. My name is Emijah - mother, grandmother, community queen.

TraeAnna Holiday  01:22

Welcome, everybody to another episode of Equity Rising, I am your host, Trae Holiday. And I'm very, always very excited to sit down with my guests. And today, I know I'll be learning some things because I have an amazing guest before me, Kirsten Harris-Talley. And you are the 37th District Representative for Washington State. And I love this quote here. So I got to throw this in here, because you were deemed the first out Black queer femme to serve in Washington State Legislature, you know, and we're gonna get into your history, where you started, your roots, and what you're really doing now, because you've been doing some things that really are trailblazing already. And it's just your first real legislative session, as we've talked about before. So welcome, as we love to call you, KHT! Welcome, KHT!

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  02:17

Thank you so much. Trae. And thank you for having me. I always enjoy talking to you. So, so excited for our conversation today.

TraeAnna Holiday  02:25

Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things I really love about this season, this year is that, you know, our last season, our first season was, you know, talking to people all over the world. And so there was a lot of folks I had no idea how they had been, you know, blazing trails, in their location and in their communities. But you know, I love this season, because I'm diving into people that I've been able to experience their work. You really have been phenomenal. You've been a part of, you know, our family for a long time. And I remember, you know, as you were on the campaign trail, you know, coming down to our Pay The Fee event, being able to address the audience there. And really, you know, right out the gate, you've been like, No, I'm about these relationships. I'm about making connections. So thank you so much for that. I know, we'll be able to dive so much more into that throughout this interview. But as always, for us right here on Equity Rising, we'd love to start off with our First Things First. And that is: How are you taking care of yourself, KHT?

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  03:26

I love this. And I love that this is an opening question. Right now taking care of myself, I've been really leaning into the nap ministry really resting when my body tells me it's done and I need to rest. I have two young ones. Our oldest will be going into fifth grade in the fall and our youngest in the first grade. So really taking that time to be very present with them. You know, we're gonna talk about all of it, but running a campaign for a year and then hitting the ground running with leg. session, I'm only seven, almost eight months into this job, and has taken a lot of time from my children. So really trying to be very present with them, with this, you know. And they've been through so much. Everyone, right, with the pandemic. So just being really, every person and every thing I'm doing, I'm trying to be really present. I hadn't realized how much of my time had been divided of thinking of the before times and trying to translate into the moment, thinking about what the future was. And in this transition moment, when it really feels like we're on the cusp of being on the other side of that, just trying to really take a breath. It feels like we can finally pause and take a little bit of a breath before the next fight. So really doing that and that rest is huge. I was talking to Nikkita this weekend and they're really the one, I heard them saying they go to bed at nine o'clock at night, every night. And I was like if Nikkita Oliver can go to bed at nine o'clock at night, I can rest. I don't have to do all-nighters anymore. So I'm really leaning into that, finally in my 40s.

TraeAnna Holiday  04:47

Ahhhh! You know, but no, you're absolutely right and it's something that I'm learning more and more, right? You know, I was just telling the team, you know, that for me so much of it is about those moments where I really came indulge with my family because as a busy working mom, and as you know, in organizing, you know, so much of the work is our part of our life. It isn't a nine to five. It isn't something that we get to kinda put down. If you get that call from a community member in the evening, and they have a concern, you want to be there for them. And that's one of the things that I really appreciate about your approach in terms of your background, and bringing that background to the foreground as a state representative. So I want to get right into that because you were calling yourself, the progressive activist mom. And so I love these terms, because so much of it is about you embracing that organizational path that you've had in terms of organizing. And so how did organizing and activism and in your life as a Black woman lead you to becoming an elected official? So this is really about your beginnings.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  05:56

It's a great question. I, in so many ways, I feel like the way that I'm coming into serving, and I say coming into it, 'cause it's still so new, right? There's no job I've ever had where I'm seven months in and have my whole hands around the whole thing. And this is such a unique job in so many ways. But the reason I feel grounded in reflecting back is that the community raised me. And I say that in throughout my history, right. In hindsight, I can see how that is a reflection. And there was a very recent report out by Noble and State Innovation Exchange called No Democracy Without Black Women, really talking about how Black women hold so many of the parts of our democracy that are about community, voice and lifting that up and making sure it's heard and valued and action is taken. And I think of that even back, you know, where I grew up. I grew up in a teeny, teeny, tiny town, pop 300, Chilhowee, Missouri, in the smack dab middle of nowhere in rural Missouri. For my family, I'm the oldest of four. We were a handful of Black people in a 40 mile radius. And my godmother, Hazel Mae Free, she always told me the story of coming from the south, north, but I didn't understand she was talking about the Northern Migration. And that woman could organize and it wasn't a formal thing, right? Like what you're saying - it wasn't a nine to five o'clock in kind of thing. It was that someone from church was gonna call her at five o'clock at night, and they needed something for the next day. And she was gonna make all those phone calls. But we were making dinner, right and putting her hand in that hot kettle water and all that stuff to get it done. And I just grew up with women who always were the ones called on and always took action and stood up and said the thing that needed to be said, told the truth even when it was hard. So in that way, when coming to Seattle in my early 20s, the way I found myself also very casually immersed in community, one of the first organizing things I ever did was a little art house, on the edge of that time. It was, I now can look back and go, Oh, this was a sign of the gentrification of the time, it was right on that edge between the Central District and Capitol Hill. There was a group of artists who had a house. Their landlord was doubling the rent and we were like organizing in protest to say: you can't do this, right? Like technically, legally, they could but it wasn't right what they were doing, like forcing these artists out, right? And so that was my tip toe in and I gravitated to that because when I was in college in Chicago, Cabrini-Green was happening. For folks who don't know about Cabrini-Green, look it up. It is one of the most overt forcing out of Black people from community that we have in modern day record. Cabrini-Green was a project of Chicago in that it was community housing that had been built. It was 98% Black families. The city decided to sell the land to developers and they were literally forced out of their homes. It was a travesty, but really shaped my consciousness of understanding these intersectional issues. And then from being in Chicago to that opportunity to organize with our friends in the Central District - when I started being more aware of what was happening around me, just like you said, opportunities, community would call. Can you come show up at something? Can you sign this? Can you stand in front of this building? Can you come and talk to these decision makers? Can you make this phone call? And slowly aunties and elders here, right? who've been holding this work a long time. I love the 37th. Folks don't sit on their hands, they take action, they make sure their neighbors know and do something. That really shaped my consciousness. And the way community shows up is always authentic and nimble to things I wish politics was more of, so bringing that sensibility in. And I'm seeing more truth tellers, right? As community elevates us into these leadership roles, 'cause politics is an organizing game. So I think it's I think it's all up for grabs for us organizers, for those of us who are rooted with others. I think that's actually what democracy should be. And I'm excited seeing it take shape more and more on all levels of government.

TraeAnna Holiday  10:00

Yeah, you know, such a great answer. And I just love hearing about, you know, your beginnings, because you're right. I mean, I think for many of us who are in that organizing space, we fall into it in a way that is really because of relationships. It always for me, you know, there's such a thorough line of like relationships. And as you were talking about, you know, being at the kitchen table, while you know, your aunties, like there's all this fire happening around you, and being able to experience it. I was literally like, wow, it wasn't until you were speaking, that I thought about my own story, right. And my grandmother had this haircare shop, right, she was Jheri curl queen in the 80s I always deemed her, and it was right on Union, right. And, and she lived -

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  10:49

- A Black-owned hair supply shop. That's unheard of now.

TraeAnna Holiday  10:52

But yeah, Black-owned. And like, if you got a Jheri curl back then, Ruth Holiday was probably the one doing your Jheri curl. But it's so, so reminiscent of my beginnings in terms of just people knowing that, hey, you know, you're not just a hairstylist, right, but that I can come to you and hey, you know, I need some day labor, I can sweep up hair today. You know, just my nephew just got out of prison, like, how does he get connected to this church? The work of, you know, people that have been in community that have always been pillars in community, you know, my mom would tell me stories about how her grandmother, my great grandmother, Lily Mae, would, you know, just invite people in, right, and they had this big house on 15th. And she was like, we always had people over. And there's so many people that really lived like that, you know, that were open like that. I remember hearing Reverend Harriet Walden talk about, you know, her doors being open in that regard. And there's such a connection between, you know, somebody that just cares about our people. You know, we were there for each other in a way that I believe, you know, parts of gentrification and maybe other ideologies as other generations began to grow up, that didn't allow it for it to carry over into present times. And I just love being able to hear that because I resonate with your beginning so, so much. And you talked about this, too, you were just mentioning how important it was, for folks in terms of the neighbors being able to be a part of this work. And so much of it is very important when we think about galvanizing the energy that's necessary to do something like educate people to stop an action to, you know, move something forward that's progressive or innovative, right, that is already going to disrupt the status quo.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  12:48

I love, I love you saying that, right? 'Cause it's one thing to know what's right or wrong. It's another thing to know what to do about it, and what actions can be taken and the how of it. And to your point, right, like, the reason organizing has to be relational is that each one has to teach one, right? Like, that's why I see so much of it in hindsight. I didn't know when I was sitting at the kitchen table, listening to my auntie respond to all those that I was learning about what it is to be responsive and organizing, right? I didn't know when she sat and thought of plan B, C, D, and F, because she knew Black women were gonna show up and they weren't gonna say yes, first, right, that I was learning what it is to have contingency plans, and think through opposition and power dynamics, right? Like, it was almost an osmosis. And, to your point, like, people have to teach us those things, they have to teach us that our voice has impact and that it's gonna take a few times, but the door will give way. And to have those elders who, you know, I want to know more about your great grandma, right? And what kitchen table she was at to learn that right? It's an amazing thing, the legacy of that. And it's why gentrification, those powers of that of displacing and discounting and making those peoples who have made our communities as resilient and thriving as they are, to be pushed out and displaced is so, you know, in my heart chakra, it's so hurtful to see people who for generations have had to fight for everything to stay rooted, be uprooted so quickly by dynamics of capitalism. Right? And greed. And colonialization. We talk about it in past tense. It is not past tense, it is happening right now every da. Every house that has someone knock on the door, right? and say, "I'm goin' to take your house" is another colonization happening right here in our backyard. So we have to stay diligent of what our ancestors have given us as gifts, and also identifying where our fights are, 'cause  they are good at that and teach us without us even knowing we're learning, which is amazing.

TraeAnna Holiday  14:47

You know, you're so right. And then you know, as we're talking about this, I really feel like that's where, you know, we need that infusion of education, because then we think that that's the way to win, so then you start to see a lot of other folks from the global majority, you know, reciprocate those actions and say, well, that's how they're doing it right. And this euro-centric framework that really has never worked for us as a people, when we think about our roots and where we come from. And we've always had these village mentalities, right, like everybody knew what their part, the part they were supposed to play in this kind of village, and this kind of more centric ideology, around how we live our lives. Our social construct was very different then and so as you're talking about, that,

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  15:35

"Say, that, Trae. say, that."

TraeAnna Holiday  15:37

Straight up, right. And I realized that, you know, when I think about my great grandmother taking people in off the streets and letting them sleep for a night, and things like that, she knew that, look, we're gonna be protected. But there's a real sense of fear that really raised up in us that wasn't, that's not what who we were right. But also I think it goes back to people mimicking those behaviors. And so then we talk about how we have anti-Blackness within us as Black people, because we're so used to a Eurocentric mentality. And when you say colonialism existing today, you're absolutely right. I mean, and I know, this is something that you deal with, as you know, now, this new role, right? I mean, you know, there's a multitude of things, right. It's a bunch of different energies, a bunch of different incentives that people have, and, and they have very different intentions with the power that they're able to build. And so we're gonna get into that, 'cause I know that that's a part of all of this. I mean, we were talking very candidly about politics. And I'm just like, man, you know, it just feels like it's such a ugly game when you see it from the outside. But, you know, you really came into legislature at such a unique time with the pandemic, right. And this is really, it lent itself to a couple of different pathways that I think are really innovative in terms of engagement with the people. And so I want you to be able to talk a little bit about how, you know, your first legislative session being in this pandemic, how that played into your role, and just kind of, again, that organizing spirit that you have, by bringing people into the work that you were doing.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  17:20

It's a great question. And I feel like right, I feel like community, government institutions, all of us are just gonna, I think we're gonna have revelations of what this last year and a half has been for years, literally, right? Because it's surfaced so much, like the thing I kept talking about all of last year, right. And I talked about the campaign, like, this campaign is about community. And it's an interview for a job that's accountable to community. Like, that's the frame we brought in in 2020. What none of us knew, right, we announced in February of 2020. None of us at that point knew that a month and a half later, like a record scratch, everything was just gonna stop. Right. And then we were gonna have to rebuild from that moment about what how, what does this look like? And the beauty of starting from the premise that we had this campaign's about community, and this is an interview to be responsive to that, is that when that record stopped, 'cause I will never forget it was a Thursday. You probably won't either, Trae, right? We all got an email - any of us in public schools got an email on a Thursday that's like, don't bring your kids in tomorrow.

TraeAnna Holiday  18:25

Yeah.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  18:26

And you're and I was like, wait, what? None of us knew what was going on. Call people, all day trying to figure out what my Friday was gonna look like. And then it was just like, hey, there's Washington state is the first state. Seattle is the first city. There is a new health crisis that we think is gonna really, you know, impact folks, which never in my lifetime could have imagined anything like that happening. What we immediately did as a campaign is we did what all good organizers did, and I say this 'cause I saw King County Equity Now do it. I saw Decrim Seattle right? There were a whole lot of groups doing work and everyone paused for a minute and regrouped. And that's what I mean about being nimble and responsive. That's what good organizing is. You don't just keep trailing ahead, you pause, you make sure your folks are taken care of. So when we saw that moment, we knew okay, what's if this campaign is about community, what's the first thing we need to plug in to and it was mutual aid. And you know, it was immediate. There were so many mutual aid networks created immediately. But it's because everyone already knew each other from the kitchen table conversations. Right. So Skyway Coalition already knew, they already had all their conduits for where those food drop offs were gonna be, which church was gonna be doing what day with West Hill right? The Central District the same thing - folks already have the networks locked in with Africatown and all, you know, the different food bank locations, and the Rainier Beach Farm, right, and Nurturing Roots, like all that, like folks who knew each other were all making the calls, making the connections. But then right, what was needed and mutual aid kept expanding, right? 'Cause then, okay. Oh, wait, now there's gonna be a housing crisis. What's this moratorium about? What's homelessness about? What's youth access to services look like? How people goin' to get to work? I mean, how many Black and brown people, let me be clear, everyone's talking about going back to work? For Black and brown people, particularly Black and brown mamas and aunties, we've been working the whole time, never had a minute off, working overtime, 'cause we're the only ones on the frontline of this crisis, literally putting our life on the line so folks can have groceries and get gasoline and get to work. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the real deal, right? Is that our communities were holding this whole thing up, 'cause we've been holding this whole thing up. So what I know, right, from our past, right here, right here in the 37th, is we know, when we have mutual aid efforts and community shows up for itself, the exact problem needs to be solved is what is solved with exactly the solution that it needs. We saw it when the Black Panther Party in Seattle started their morning school program, right, which is - now there's not a child in our public schools who can't get breakfast in the morning, and now take it with them in the classroom if they need to just start learning, right? That didn't come from educators. That didn't come from public school institutions, right, and boards of directors that came from community saying we need to feed our babies before we expect them to learn something. So what I knew is like, this is the moment, this is the moment when community shows up. And what government needs to do is follow folks' lead. So we really got into that. We really said we're going to stay where mutual aid is happening and say we're committed to showing up for each other. And then again, what none of us knew. And I say this 'cause 2020, the same way we say 2020 vision is clarity, the year 2020 is clarity. There is not any corner where we did not have truth around something. I had things I assumed were better than they were. Yhey were not. They were worse than I thought. Right? Every fault lies in these institutions.  But what none of us knew was that George Floyd would be murdered and that somehow the globe, literally the whole globe, happened to be in a moment of pause, paid attention in a way it never paid attention before. Right? Those almost nine minutes, those eight minutes and 47 seconds, every person watched and paid attention. And what they saw was so overt, so egregious, right, literally watching. Also witnesses standing there begging for that man's life as he was begging for his life that people took to the streets. I did not know that was gonna happen, Trae. When I think about those three months, February, March, April to May, it blows my mind. Right? What it is to see people collectively come together. And I say that 'cause I know I was in marches in the CD with folks who had never been in a march in their life, when they were out in the streets following the lead of Black people who said this is what we need to do and this is how we need to do it. And I can tell you with what we had in leg. session in this remote session - for me, it set up for me every way that we stayed in communication. Our campaign made sure we weren't creating containers for folks to come into. We were asking where folks are and we're showing up there. And that's how we continued the work. And for me, that's what good governments did. What I saw at the state level, one of the tools that we shifted, we have never had public testimony given remotely before. If anyone wanted to come tell a decision maker in Olympia, what was what, they had to take a day off work, find childcare, find someone to take care of their kids, drive through two hours of traffic, if you're going to the high part of either end of the day, drive to Olympia, sit in a room, wait for two minutes of testimony to head back home. Now we could have aunties right there in their childcare centers giving us testimony in real time, right. So there were some really amazing tools built that led with where community is. It changed the game on people who needed to give testimony for whom English isn't their primary language we could connect. It gave access to elders who usually have no way of giving voice. So few elders get to come to Olympia and give voice to things. I love seeing so many elders speaking up. So many young people speaking up. I had teenagers almost on every committee where there was policy that intersect with youth. They are talking about their lived experience giving that testimony. So there's a lot of struggle that happened during the pandemic. And I know we'll no doubt speak to that. But seeing people rise up with George Floyd's death and take to the streets, wholly transformed everything that was on the agenda for leg. session this year. And I thank every neighbor, whether you made a phone call, sent a postcard, went out and marched every day. There were folks marching literally every day for over 125 days. Whatever you did to take action last year, thank you for that action. It made sure that me and my colleagues at the state level made some starts to change that's been long overdue, particularly when it comes to police accountability. And it is for me as an abolitionist, transformative to see that directly how democracy works. Folks with shoes on the street, making change for the halls of Olympia, all while we're sitting at home on Zoom. It's almost unimaginable, but it happened. And it shows that it can happen again, and it can keep happening. So I'm excited about the possibilities.

TraeAnna Holiday  25:09

Agreed, you know, until I'm so excited about the possibilities. And I think that when we think about what the, you know, civic engagement process looks like, oftentimes, you know, there's so many folks that have been excluded, and they were really a part of this process. And that is what excites me. And I think when I think about how to move a lot of that momentum forward to create new pipelines that become regular, right, in terms of this process, I think, okay, who didn't we touch, and from a perspective of like a media director at an organization that is, you know, progressively you know, pro Black, and is really uprooting this anti-Blackness and looking at equity at all different sides of the spectrum that's necessary, 'cause it's not built in anything. Y'all know, I say that almost on every episode, because equity needs to be infused in everything, it wasn't intentionally built into anything. And so the ideas around who we did not connect with, and how we can be more intentional, I think about my brothers on the streets, right, those who are like, look, that ain't for me, shorty. You know, like, I'm, I'm good. No, how we get their lived experience as a part of, you know, new legislation and policy and getting the pieces of the puzzle that may be missing that are going to elevate their lived experience, right, to give them other opportunities. Right. So that's where I see so much of this going. And I think, you know, there's

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  26:37

Thank you for, for naming that.

TraeAnna Holiday  26:39

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's something that I have thought about often, right, and I talk to my team about at King County Equity Now. We talk about this stuff as a staff, because we realize that the gentrification disrupted us, but it didn't, and it displaced us. But it didn't mean that we don't want to be galvanized in collectively sharing our experiences that are going to actually make change. Yeah, people are tired of, you know, postcards being sent to them and say, hey, please, you know, speak up about this development. Sometimes they're getting a little burnt out, and I get it. But there's some folks that never even see those postcards that want to participate. So how do we as an organization be even more intentional on that. And when I think about a lot of the disruption that COVID really caused, but as you just named, so much of the benefits, there were things that, you know, I think were disrupted in a way that made people a little bit grrr about, right, in terms of, you know, even lobbyists having the access that they have to state representatives, and being now in competition with community members who are like, I don't care who you represent. I'm here representing my lived experience. I'm representing my family, I'm representing my community. How was that for you? 'Cause I know that that was a little bit of a push and pull.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  28:05

It was a game changer. It was a game changer. I mean, I'm an organizer, right. So when I knew that this was was my job. And let me also say, What a delight to be on the campaign trail in the 37th district. I want to name that. The only race I can find in Washington state history where all the top candidates were Black folks. Let that sink in. For the first time in Washington state history. And Black folks who've been in community, right, like you brought up Miss Harriet, right? Like, Chukundi Salisbury is good people, right? Like the context of the conversations he and I were able to have on that campaign was exactly the right kind of conversations we should have been having. Right. Like, just and I say that, because a lot of folks run campaigns that's like, you know, far right folks, you don't get to actually talk about it, we have to actually talk about the issues, actually talk about solutions. So what a gift, right, to have that experience in 2020, in real time, as our communities needed us to have those conversations. And then what I did is an organizer - as soon as I knew I had the job through November, December, I intentionally went and looked at the lobbying list 'cause it's a public record. You can see every lobbyist that has to register in Washington State. And when I did that, I went through and intentionally looked at those who were serving service or organizations, right. So think, you know, food banks, houselessness issues, reproductive health, incarceration issues, reentry issues, right. I found those folks and I proactively reached out to talk to them 'cause I knew we were gonna go into a remote session where they weren't gonna get to run into me in the hallway 10 times and tell me what their issue was. And I wanted to go in prepared to know what was community prioritizing already for policy. And that was a game changer, right, to sit down with King County Equity Now before leg session started and said, "Hey, what are your priorities? Which ones are gonna come up to the state level? How can we work together? How do we communicate?" That sort of organizing ahead of time I know prepped me extraordinarily well. Because to your point, what usually happens is the lobbyists who work for Amazon, Boeing, Pepsi, Microsoft, right? Those folks have big money, they spent a lot of time courting, and suck all the oxygen out of the room. And they're the ones who usually get to talk to you. Well, I didn't talk to them. Those weren't my folks. Those weren't my priorities. I mean, you know, I sat down. Boeing has a number of jobs in the district, I did want to hear what their priorities are. But I didn't give them more than one meeting. Whereas other community groups we met sometimes once every two weeks, right, on a policy that was moving forward. So it was about choice points of where I put my time. And also, to your point, the system was disrupted, right? The folks who make $250,000 a year to represent a corporation to influence decisions didn't have access to us the way they usually do. It also meant the volume of community voice we had, it blew my mind, Trae. I mean, you do not. I love tax policy, 'cause I know tax policy means resources that I need to then have an equity budget to get resources to community. I'm a nerd for it. Most people are not. Most people are not sitting through three hours of us talking about tax policy. I'll be darned if when we introduced the wealth tax, the first of its kind, exemption of the first billion dollars you make, but after you make $1,000,000,001, you have to pay taxes on it. We had over 1000 comments from community within 48 hours. That many folks commented on that policy. Unheard of. A game changer. So you're absolutely right,  that there were things. And then there's other things, right, where I know, the fact that we were remote, cut me off from certain levels of access, right? What I really wanted to be was sitting in churches with elders. Churches weren't meeting, right? There's certain places where folks gathered that we did not have access. So I'm excited about what next year looks like to add some of those places where people already are in relationship and congregate back into the mix, as our places to have solidarity together.  But I also need to say our communities suffered extraordinarily under the pandemic. We're still in arrears for court cases. And what that looks like for any of our loved ones who are trying to get out of jail or moving through those systems and having  their data be heard and having justice in that. It's a huge issue. We saw, I am still nervous about what the governor's announcement was with the moratorium, this being the last extension, and what it's going to look like for folks in September. I'm particularly nervous for families who have found themselves months and months without work, trying to think through what it is. I mean, we're talking about folks who are holding sometimes $20 to $25,000 worth of debt, right, for this long, depending on how long folks have been sitting and waiting, trying to be okay. We have a lot that has surfaced where we know, the scale of need outstrips what we have to offer. And for me, then the question is, how do we make sure those most impacted are who we offer it to first. And I know those of my neighbors right here in the 37th. It always has been, we've been deeply ignored for generations, which is why folks are so good at fighting for what they know they deserve. And so for me, right, the what has also surfaced is how deep the work is that we have ahead of us. But to your point, what it is to make it in our image. And I say that because I got to join the legislature with the largest influx of Black members we've ever had in our legislature's history. And that has transformed the conversation. And you know that too, on the organizing, on the ground, I've seen more Black-led groups than ever in our history, ever, ever. It's a game changer when those who actually know are the ones leading.

TraeAnna Holiday  33:36

And I think you're absolutely right. And this is why so much of it is coming from the perspective of lived experience, right. And so when we talk about the fact that those voices are so valuable, and the fact that there was such an amazing amount of those voices that were part of these processes, that's what makes us better. That's what makes our, you know, greases our wheels to turn at a better rate and to produce more equitable solutions for the masses. And I love how we at King County Equity Now, we say: "Look, if everybody focuses on equity for Black folks, it benefits everybody, because everyone will be better for it. Everybody will." And so we're really getting that into the hearts and minds of so many folks who haven't been able to see it that way. Because it isn't their lived experience, right? But now they're starting to awaken to the ideas of what that really means for them, and how they can contribute to that larger body of work happening right on the ground. And it really makes me excited, because I agree with you 110% about, you know, how valuable those voices are and how it really changed the game. And honestly, yes, you know, lobbyists have always had the access, right? You were just talking about the fact, you know - folks getting paid $250,000 a year. Of course they're gonna be able to wine and dine and have the access. And the fact that this disrupted their process, I think is so critical and key. And I really want our viewers and our listeners to understand that when I'm always saying see yourself as part of the solution, I'm saying it all the time on Converge Media. I say it here, as a media director for King County Equity Now. That, to me, is the golden ticket. Because when we have the apathy that this system is not going to change, no matter what I do, no matter what I say, that really doesn't allow for there to be any progression. It just allows for this Eurocentric colonialist ideology to persist. And so I love what you're talking about here, because  the excitement of so many voices is really key to this process. Yeah. And yeah, as you learn through this session right here, and thinking about, okay, going back to any norms, as you know, COVID lifts a little bit, I know, we have this delta variant, but as you know, things may kinda get to a place of like, Alright, that was that was weird, you know, we let some things through because it was a bit different. How do you as a state representative, see your role in terms of ensuring that the lessons learned through that disruption are the things that are able to continue? So again, the people that are normally left out of the process are still in it, even once you're back in Olympia. And you know, it maybe it goes back to a little bit more of, hey, we got to get on the bus and go over there. How do you see that working? Is it kind of leaving that digital space open? What do you see for that?

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  36:37

It's a great question. And I've been saying, right, and I, again, I want to reiterate, so this is the largest class of Black legislators that have ever served in Washington State history. There are nine of us serving simultaneously. Senator T'wina Nobles is the only Black representative in the Senate. So she's a Senator, the only Senator in the Senate, but I need to be clear, we are 9 serving right now of only 25 since 1889, who've served in the history of Washington State. So I need to, I say that to emphasize what it means to have us all there at the same time. Right? That means most folks when they've been there, have been the only one. And we all - if you Black, brown, queer, you know what it's like, when you're the only one in the room. We all know what that means, right? Great for the photo ops, not so great when the action steps happen, right? And somehow our voice gets lost. That's not happening anymore, when folks can reinforce what's being said. So that's huge. I do think the digital tool makes a huge difference. That's why I spoke to that testimony piece. It was transformative. I truly think the volume of bills that - we had a lower volume of bills this leg session, but when I look at the depth of what was transformed with the policy we have? Unprecedented. We've never had a leg session with this much change. What does that mean? When I tell you there were six policing justice policies all passed on the first cycle they were introduced. And I'm just telling you, I've been I've done that drive to Olympia over the last, you know, 20 years of being in activism work. The number of times you get told: "It's cute that you introduced this, but you know, it's not gonna pass in one session." Like it's just a given that nothing will pass in one session. Right, like that's just the folksy knowledge. Well, we disproved that this year. What does that mean? It means we have statewide oversight really taking police out of the business of policing police because it's not working. We had a redress to the gaps in I-940. We had a police tactics bill that says the tactics police use Breonna Taylor died because of no-knock warrants. That's not legal in Washington State anymore. Right. Eric Garner died because of chokeholds. That's not legal in Washington State anymore. And there's a provision around militarized equipment. I was standing, like so many, I know you were there too, Trae. How many nights were we out on Capitol Hill while there was National Guard out defending an empty building, protecting an empty building? How many millions of dollars that we spend to protect an empty building? Right, and what it looks like to have the city tear gassing everyone with militarized federal grade military equipment, that lots of that isn't legal in Washington State anymore, right? Like that was a huge bill, and to have it pass, and to your point, it's because I-940 was built by impacted families who lost loved loved ones to law enforcement. Those were the folks on the frontline of the policy. Those were the folks, bless them, telling their story over and over again in committee meetings so everyone could hear. It was transformative. So I know for a fact the remote testimony we will be keeping at the legislature. We're figuring out what it looks like to integrate in-person and that together, because absolutely not can we lose that. Having thousands and thousands and thousands of people who probably never participated actively as we're making policy, participate was transformative.  And then for me, the resources piece - capital gains is huge. We are in the state with the most upside-down tax code in the entire country. And let me be clear, it's not an accident, y'all. It is not an accident that we have the worst tax code, and also the biggest corporations on the globe. And the richest humans on the globe in our backyard. They created many of these policies or have cemented bad tax policy that benefits them. Rich people like to stay real rich, and apparently waste their money going into space. And we have some housing to buy, we have food to buy, we have schoolbooks to buy, we have health care to buy, we have things that collectively, we talk about self care, there are many things that self care will never be enough. And we need community care and government is the one who can help provide it. And so capital gains, having money that makes money, when I trade stocks, and I sell that, the money that I make from that money making money now gets taxed. That's bringing an extra $400 million a year into our our budget at the state level. That's transformative. We were also partially bailed out at the federal level, because the pandemic brought federal dollars to bear. But those are onetime dollars. So we have a lot more to fight for when it comes to equity and taxes. And the other piece with that, that I'm excited about is one of my policies, which is a property tax exemption, which would have all of us who own homes, and you don't have any folks that been displaced who own outright in our district, to have up to a $250,000 tax exemption so that you can stay in your home and property tax payments aren't what's gonna push you out. So rebalancing our tax code is also giving working folks a break. Because rich folks are getting all the breaks and working folks have been paying us in all this. So we saw those sorts of transformational policies all happen in a leg session where I wasn't sitting, you know, right next to my colleagues in Olympia, I was here in district on Zoom and what a privilege to to be right here in district with our neighbors while we got to vote on those decisions. So the ground we laid in this leg session is something I need folks to keep up on. That's why I talked about the wealth tax, I need the wealth tax next. I need the 100 richest people in our state to pay for being a billionaire, more than a billionaire, and contributing a little bit of what they make so that we can take care of our neighbors. And I am so excited talking to many of our neighbors who are on the inside. As you know many of our neighbors and loved ones are incarcerated, about what we can do to transform those policies and laws and rules as well. How are we going to take care of our neighbors as we reimagine the systems that are our alternatives to incarceration. So moving from police accountability to how our incarceration system is treating our loved ones. That's something I'm very excited. There's more and more conversation happening at the state level. And it's right on time. In Washington State we incarcerate more people per capita than we realize. And that's something we need to change as well. So the conversations that Black folks are leading on the ground, and in the legislative session is building traction, that I don't think we're gonna turn back from it. I think the only way folks are gonna have choice-point-wise is to be present and move forward with it. There's no turning back now. We know the truth and we can't move away from it.

TraeAnna Holiday  43:28

We know the truth and we can't move away from it. I agree 100%. And you know, I love this so, so much. Every time I'm doing these interviews for Equity Rising, I'm just so elated. Because, you know, when I think about what Dr. Mimms has said to me, you know, 94 years old, and when she looks at what we're doing and how we're moving, she's so impressed, because she's like, this is different than how we were during the Civil Rights era. This is different than how we've ever been in my lifetime. Right? In terms of Black community really taking charge, and really, like unapologetically saying, "No, things will change, because we're not gonna continue to live under these kinds of conditions that are not elevating our material conditions and our lived experience." And we all know there's been this age-old, you know, fight around reparations, what does it actually look like, right? And some of the things that you're talking about there in terms of taxing the rich, in terms of things like that, really moving those monies into funds that are recurring, to really, again, undo those past harms, right? And I think that just like we're leading in police reform, this, you know, this nation, Washington State, I think we really have before us an opportunity to begin to lead the nation with regard to reparations, and what it looks like and I know that there's some bills out there at the federal level, but I think that that's exactly right. And you laid it out so beautifully there, KHT, about how right here in Washington State, we have so many billionaires and people that are making money hand over fist, right? When we talk about what capitalism, how it breeds greed, it's very important that we start to do some things that are breeding equity into to all of these things, right? And so I love how you laid it out there. Because I think that that's why, as a state, we have the opportunity to start showcasing to the nation, what it looks like to really be paying for those past harms. And you know, I just had to throw that in there. Because listening to you, I'm like, we actually have an opportunity here. And I always say to industry leaders, I was saying this to PCC on Union, and I'm like, you have an opportunity to lead in the grocery space, by allowing for Black folks to take over this location. You train them on what it looks like to have a grocery co op, and you move yourself out of business at this particular location, right? No, I'm not asking just for us to have products on your shelves, I'm not asking for you to be elevating a few Black business owners, I'm literally saying to you, and as a group, we're saying to you, you have the opportunity to actually work yourself out of a job at this location, because you just realized the history here is way too deep. And what we need to do is something that's completely outside of the box. And I think that the only way to have these kinds of innovative measures and progression is to introduce those ideas. So just like you know, many folks have been fighting for this Tax The Rich campaign, and I, I'm all for it, because ultimately, you can't die with all that money. I'm just saying, it doesn't go with you. You know, what is the point and there's no way that you really are spending all of that money that you amass at this point. No, absolutely not. So there's a lot of work that can be done there. And so when we think about a lot of these things, right, we think about the fact that it's the work of so many people in community. And I love to say we have to continue to press because there's no way that anything is ever given to us without us demanding it. Right. We fight for things. We always have. That's just a part of what we understand as the fabric of our nation. Right.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  47:29

Absolutely. And to your point, the victories are many and the fight is long. Right? Because they're cumulative victories. There's not gonna be a one and done, there's not gonna be a one and done on equity. It's too deeply entrenched. And I love what you said, like, you know, I love when Wyking says reparations, repair rations. Yeah. And the reason I love when Wyking says that is that it, right, it literally deconstructs the word - one. But what it also points to, which is for me about what all this work is, this is healing work y'all. We're talking about generations, generations of trauma, right? We know now from science, my pregnancies were at higher risk, not even because of me and my present. It's just the cumulative trauma that my body experiences, right, to then bring another child into the world. We know this is true. And we're seeing it in real time. It is not, I do not think it's a coincidence that our indigenous siblings are now bringing home, the children who were lost to those boarding schools, right? The solidarity that I see between indigenous folks and Black folks, particularly in this part of the country, like fills me up with, right, what it is to really make repair of the two original sins of this country, which was stealing people from their indigenous lands and forcing them to toil and die on this land that was stolen from other people. Right, we're talking about two indigenous peoples' stories that are interwoven and what it was to be robbed of something that we would have freely shared. Freely. So the healing of that, like what is it to think of resources as healing us now for what has been done to us generationally? It changes everything. I love being an abolitionist, not because I love tearing down the systems of policing and incarceration. No, that's hard work. I love the vision of what it is to see alternative though, and what it is to build those alternatives and how we already have those solutions right here in our communities. Every time I sit down with Community Passageways, every time I sit down with Creative Justice, every time I sit down with Choose 180, I know government has all the solutions we need. We just need to follow the lead and build it to scale with resources. So thank you for saying that. Like, for me policy work is healing work, hands down. And I'm going to tell you now, I don't know who listens to show but if you are white person out here who doesn't know if this is your fight, it is. You can heal too. You don't even know how much healing you probably need as a white person 'cause white supremacy is clouded you from how hurt you are and how hurt your people were by white supremacy. You can let go of whiteness, you can embrace your true ancestry, and you can follow our lead in this fight. We can all heal together. That's the work.

TraeAnna Holiday  50:16

Yes, ashe that is the work. And for those of you that don't know, ashe means: it is done. And you're just absolutely right. And honestly, I think about this work. I love how you said it's healing work. And that's what fuels me so much. I think about my sons often when I'm out there, right. And there's maybe times where I missed a dinner, or I miss something going on with them. But I always bring it back for them to understand the importance of this work. And that it's beyond just my immediate family. That the reasons why I'm here in community and I wear so many hats, and I do so many things, and I expand my energies in ways that are really literally beyond me, how I get things done, it's because it's so required right now. These times require us to be exactly these powerhouses that we are, KHT. I mean, there's no other way around this. And one of the things that you really said to me, when I was talking to you before, was the dichotomy between, you know, really politics over here, but policy over here, and how you see it as you know, this is about policy for you. There's people that are in this game, to play the politics of it all. And we talked about that a little bit, the disruption of lobbying, the disruption of what folks were so comfortable with, because really, and the truth is, they don't want to hear anybody's voices. Right? They want to be able to create policies that  that they think are gonna be more beneficial to them. There's a very selfish nature, in terms of the ways that policies have been created. And when you made that delineation between you really being about policy, and not about the politics, you get it - that there's parts of that you have to play. But also, this is so interesting to me, because people really see politics as something that's like, I don't I don't, aye I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I think what we're seeing right now is people understanding how important their voice is in it. And that when we really focus on policies that are going to elevate our material conditions as Black folks as indigenous folks, that that's really where the power is. I just wanted you to be able to speak to that.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  52:46

Absolutely. Yeah, it was interesting because the thing, the structure of lege session, I understood right as an activist moving in and out of it. But I didn't understand how the politics change. And it was a good lesson for me. The way policy happens is that the House writes our policy and gets it passed, the Senate writes their policy and gets it passed. And then about two thirds of the way through the process, you change how Chamber of Origin. So the Senate bills - now the House has to consider if we're gonna pass them. And then vice versa. I was not prepared for how the deep policy conversations we had within our own caucus and within our own committees, to build up the policy of the work, how those policies would then be put through a political process when it changed chambers. And then actually, the questions of policy would be mostly transactional and less relational, right? It wasn't a continuation of building better policy. Once it was there, it was purely about politics of: in the time that we have, with how many votes we have on the table, with other considerations of who's decided what's important, would your policy, get even enough time to even be voted on? Right, like the whole conversation changed. And the thing about that I clued in about, the difference between politics and policy, is a bit of what you said at the top of our time together, right? Not everyone is in this for the same motivations. And it's a good reminder. I literally, in my meditations, have to remind myself of that. Like, I'm so used to being in community spaces, I forget that that's unique. Most people aren't in community spaces, right. They're in competitive corporate spaces, right, or other spaces where there's not abundance, there's always short-sightedness, right? And you know, sort of, I have to have mine but you can't have any if I do, right, like it's just a different frame and orientation. I forget that sometimes. And for me, now, I really try to weigh when I'm working with colleagues, you know, how much of their motivation is policy versus politics and it just gives me an understanding of how they move through the work. Not a judgment. I need folks to do the politics really well, too. I need a lot of mentors there because the politics are real, and it will prevent us from having good policy on the other side. We were blessed with a lot of the police tactics. Those are those moments when politics converges with really good policy, and seeing how, you know, Representative Johnson stewarded his bill through that, Representative Intamin how we, as a Black members caucus could wrap care around folks through that process. But it's something I can't say it enough. And I don't even like, right, that now, everywhere you go, people are like, "Oh, she's a politician.", because I'm not actually a politician, I'm a policy maker and an organizer, right. It's a different orientation to the work. So it's really important. And I say that to my activism folks too, right, because I know often we'll get in the details of the policy and sometimes we forget to get into the details of the politics. And I think sometimes we really have to sit with both. And sometimes you need a power map for each separately, quite frankly. So it just it shifted my way of thinking. But that experience of watching how politics rules the last third of lege session, it has me thinking in interim, how I'm working with community differently, right now that I understand the architecture of that differently. And we thought at the city level. I mean, now, right, we're looking down ticket, we're looking at our county races and our city races. I'm excited, because none of the policy - well I shouldn't say none - very little of the policy we pass at the state level gets implemented at the state level, most of it gets implemented at the county and city level. So all those policing, Justice bills are only as good as the local legislators who were gonna vote in this next session, and their ability and willingness to actually get in on those laws. And I say that because there are cities and counties right now suing the state, right for those policies. There's opposition groups doing the state for those policies. But I'm feeling like here, where we've been doing this rooted work at the county level and the city level for several years now. And formal places like King County equity. Now we're where we really amplified our needs. People on the ground protesting state level policy change, and now implementation at the local level. This is I mean, as a policy partner, this is like this is this is my jam. So I thank you for naming that. And, and naming it because community is almost always coming in, not in politics, but in policy. And we have to be aware of how politics will be advantageous to us or a barrier to us. So thank you for naming that. And having us really break it down. Because it it's, it's not politics aren't all bad, but it ain't all good.

TraeAnna Holiday  57:37

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that it's great to be able to make that specific delineation, right, and to put each one where they belong, but also to understand how they interplay with one another. So thank you so much for addressing that in that regard. I think that's really, really important to this discussion. And we have been just kidding, this whole time. I've just been having such a great time.  But I want to ask you one more thing here. Because when I think about, you know, maybe some of the things that really motivated you to move from, you know, not just organizing, but now like, hey, I need to be, you know, in this place at a state representative leve. I need to be a part of legislature, I need to be making sure that all of my work as an organizer, and, you know, a community-rooted person, that that voice is actually heard down in Olympia, and that I can represent that. When you look up and you think, in decades to come, right? (hopefully not too many) But really, what does Black equity look like to you? I mean, if we just imagine equity, right? I mean, this is what this is all about. And I love our title Equity Rising, 'cause I just feel like it's very fitting, right? It really is rising to the top, rising to the surface. But what are some of those things that you maybe imagined in terms of what that actually means on the ground? And what it looks like for us to be able to realize equity?

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  59:10

That's such a good question. I mean, when I think about the promise of what equity is, it's interesting, Trae, 'cause when you said that I didn't actually imagine it as tasks or things in our experience, which of course it would be. I thought about what it would feel like, right? And so what would equity, real equity, feel like in my body, I think and in the body of other Black folks. It would feel like walking down the street and not worrying that others are judging me just for existing in this skin. It would look like sitting at work and knowing that my opinion is being respected and valued as a given just as it would be if I were a white sis heterosexual man. It means never having to have the "talk' with our babies, 'cause we know that they'll be allowed to thrive. It would mean the Black elders who I worry right now, whether they're gonna have a roof on their head, would never have to have that worry. They would know that every care that they need as they transition, right, onto the other side would be taken care of. It would feel like joy, safety, security. It would feel consistent. Right? I don't know if folks understand what it feels like to be a Black person just not know that you have consistency, right? Because we can be doing anything, and someone doesn't like it 'cause we're Black. And then the randomness happens. And it would feel hopeful in a way that I don't even know if I fully understand. All my hope has always been linked to something that I know is probably something I'm building towards, but I won't get to experience. So like the idea of having hope that could be immediately filled in the next moment or the next day feels almost insurmountable. But that's - I mean, the thing about being an organizer and an activist, right, is that I am audacious in my vision of what's possible. I'm audacious, right? It shouldn't be a radical thing to think every human who's here just has a roof over their head. But I'm happy to be radical, "radical" as long as that feels like a radical idea to have it come true. But it would feel just I would feel wholly different. I think all of us would feel wholly different in that kind of world. And that's what I mean, when I said, white people don't always understand. I talk about this with anti-racist white people, right, like, our liberations are linked, because sometimes our chains are invisible. And we don't know they're there till someone showed us that our chains are identical. And there's something in that healing that all of us need, because none of us are actually experiencing any of those things right now. Right? White people aren't either, actually, they get a little reprieve for their whiteness. But quite frankly, white elders aren't treated any better than Black elders at the end of the day, right? We're not wrapping care around anyone, because we're using Black folks as the lowest common denominator and building everything else on top of it. So for me, it would just be a wholly different lived experience, and what a beautiful one. I would love to experience that kind of freedom someday. I think of the spirituals you know, how you feel when you hear a good spiritual song and a protest? It would feel like that.

TraeAnna Holiday  1:02:25

What a beautiful answer, KHT, and I agree with you 100%. When I think about that, I immediately see my children, right? Literally thriving, whatever it is they want to do, being accepted, feeling love, you know, being wrapped around them, no matter what their community or neighborhood looks like. But that is something that's inherently built into their lived experience. So I just thank you for painting that amazing picture for us all today. And you know, before we let you go, we got to make sure folks, you know, know how to get in contact with you. They have things that they want to, you know, bring up to you or mention to you. How does that work for you as a state representative of the 37th District?

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  1:03:12

Yeah, so folks can contact our office at any time, Peter Wu is our legislative assistant. And we'll make sure if I can't reply that our office replies and wraps care around folks. You can reach me at kirsten.harris-talley@leg.wa.gov. And so contacting us there. Now that we're on the other side of the pandemic, our hope is that by the end of the year we'll have our in-district office. So hopefully we can share that information with you if folks want to start coming to see us in person. But right now we're doing Zoom meetings. I can also do coffee dates with folks in district. And please, if y'all see me like out and about, come say "hi"! I'm at the farmers market, I'm at the grocery store, I'm at protests and at community events- like come over, like tell me what's going on. Tell me what you need. Tell me how you know things are working for you. I'm working on policy right now. So if you're involved with any of the coalition's or organizations we talked about, those folks are talking to me, if you have policy solutions we should be writing up for next year, please let us know. And also know we do a tremendous amount of casework. We've been helping folks with unemployment insurance, conduits to getting energy efficiency aid, a whole host of things. So really anything you need, where there's a state conduit, or we know how to get it at the local level, we want to help so please reach out.

TraeAnna Holiday  1:04:34

Beautiful, beautiful work KHT. Just so glad that you're able to bring all of your lived experience into this new role for yourself as state representative of the 37th District. I gotta say and I've said this outside of your presence, so let me say it in your presence -that KHT is on the job and you're doing it so phenomenally. You really are reaching out to the right folks, you're being very intentional about keeping your community relationships alive. You're not being transactional, which I love so much about your approach to all of this. Because again, I think it really speaks to your strength as an organizer, and understanding how important those relationships really are to carry the work forward. So I gotta say, thank you so, so much not just for being with us today on this podcast, but for all of the energy that you're pouring into the work and for the ways that your intentionality is showing up and shining its light down on all of us. Thank you so so much. I really mean it.

Rep. Kirsten Harris-Talley  1:05:40

Thank you. And thank you for this conversation. I just love chat. I could be here all day. So thank you for taking the time and such amazing questions with so much depth and brilliance. So thank you, Trae, for all you do for all of us.

TraeAnna Holiday  1:05:53

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you guys heard it right here from KHT herself. I mean, what an amazing interview. And always, you know, right here on Equity Rising. It's important that we dive deep, but also give you guys a real glimpse into who these equity changemakers are. Kirsten Harris-Talley is doing the damn thing. And I gotta say that, as somebody who gets to experience her depth of work, I'm just elated. I really am. I love being able to talk to our local equity changemakers in this season, because really, we have a unique major here in Washington State in Seattle and in King County that is beyond and so many folks around the world have told me that there is something special happening with Black folks here in Washington and I'm just thankful that we're able to dive in and give you all a glimpse out there as to how these equity change makers are blazing trails, and really bringing innovative tactics and approaches and their love to all of this work. You guys know we're gonna continue to talk to amazing equity changemakers and bring you guys more and more because that's what we do here at Equity Rising. Thank you guys for listening. Much appreciated and always much love.