Equity Rising S1 : Episode 3
The Aftermath of Apartheid with Mandisa Dyantyi; Cape Town, South Africa
Our podcast was founded on the notion that we have much to learn from each other’s experiences, and Trae’s conversation with Cape Town-based Mandisa Dyantyi of the Social Justice Coalition is a case in point. Mandisa’s work centers on South Africa’s informal housing settlements where high levels of unemployment, housing insecurity, and violent crime illuminate the stark contrast between the country’s constitution and its citizens’ day-to-day lives. As Mandisa upholds housing rights for all and centers the lived experience of Black women as a barometer of whether or not justice and equality are within reach, she and Trae find solidarity and actionable connection across the globe.
This week’s Chime In features Teme Wokoma & Marta Bakke.
This episode was produced by Neroli Price, Julia Drachman, & Linnea Ingalls and edited by Josh Berl.
Transcript
Neroli Price 00:00
Hi, my name is Neroli Price, and I'm one of the producers for Equity Rising, the podcast that connects with incredible people across the country and around the world fighting for racial justice. In this episode, our host, Trae is in conversation with Mandisa Dyantyi from a Social Justice Coalition, all the way in Cape Town in South Africa. Mandisa and Trae talk about the similarities and differences of what it's like to fight for equal access in Seattle and Cape Town. From policing to housing. It turns out, there's a lot that we can learn from each other.
Trae Holiday 00:37
All righty. Well, this is another episode of equity rising with me, Trae Holiday, and I'm so elated to be joined by Mandisa Dyantyi of the Social Justice Coalition in South Africa. Welcome. Welcome to the show, Mandisa,
Mandisa Dyantyi 00:54
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here today.
Trae Holiday 00:59
Absolutely. Now, we love to start off our shows and listen in for First Things First: how are you taking care of you?
Mandisa Dyantyi
Oh, that's a difficult one. I think it's a difficult time globally for all of us. And I think as social justice workers or activists, we aren't very deliberate about taking care of ourselves. And we always like busy trying to solve problems across the world. But I think this time sort of called on us to be deliberate about taking time out, and sort of making sure that we re-center ourselves. And I think that's what I've been trying to do, through really just being deliberate about relaxing, and taking time out and developing some boundaries, you know, in terms of how one works, and we work ends. And because our work doesn't really add, it's part of our everyday life. But I think, at least what I've learned is that, for me to be able to do the work that I need to do I need to be deliberate about relaxing and resting and taking care of myself. And that means getting out of spaces that caused me anxiety at times, and not Black womaning, you know? I think that's what I've been sort of trying my best to do that I don't need to be the strong Black woman, because times are already very tough. And therefore, we need to be kinder to ourselves. And that's what I've been trying to do. I mean, I have twins, they are two years old, almost two. So it's insane. It's crazy. Yeah, absolutely.
Trae Holiday
Well, thank you so much for sharing that it's always good to know. And then maybe we can share tips and tricks, you know, I'm kind of doing exactly what you just described, you know, it's about taking time for yourself and enjoying kind of just life, right? Because you're so right about this being our lives, so much of this work for so many of us that are doing this work. Now, you know, there is clearly some major differences between some of the racial characteristics that we have right here in Seattle versus what you're experiencing down there in South Africa. And I know that colonialization you know, racial uprising, apartheid, all of that has really been a part of the social construct that you've been dealing with. So I want to just set up some of the history for the audience so that they can understand what has that been, like the racial tension, the apartheid? How is all of that really been for you being in South Africa?
Mandisa Dyantyi 03:47
So we are what - 20 CTS into democracy now. And I think, politically, apartheid ended in 1994. Well, maybe in 1990, when President Nelson Mandela was released, from prison together with other political prisoners, and in the process of negotiations status to say what does a an inclusive South African look like? And so politically, I think you sort of engaged on this idea of a rainbow nation. And there were dreams and hopes about what that means and what that looks like. And I think for most of us, it looked like an integrated society where everyone would belong, because what our party did, and maybe even other regimes before it, colonialism. What those did was to, to clearly divide people along racial racial lines, right. And and apartheid was a policy that sought to institutionalize that even more. And so the dream was that we will have this integrated South Africa where everyone had ownership of the country where everyone could partake in whatever the country had to offer. And I think what we didn't think at the time was how long that was going to take, and and how deliberate we needed to be for us to create the world and the society that we were hoping for. The other thing what what we thought, and I'm saying we as though I was part of the FIFA, I was a child at the time. But I think the idea was that as soon as South Africa was declared a democratic country, everything would just fall into place. forgetting that there was a very deliberate system that segregated people and separated people along racial lines. And for that to be corrected, it needed another very deliberate action to say, we are uniting people, politically and economically and everyone will be deliberated on sort of bringing everyone to the same level. And we were never going to achieve that. In like, two, 3, 10 years, it was going to take time. But I do feel like it's taking a bit longer than it should. Right. Now, I mean, that in like, basic, basic things like access to basic services, in how millions of people are still deprived of those, as much as our constitution says, clearly that it is everyone's right to have access to basic services. And I think mostly everything looks good on paper. Right. But it is the implementation that that way, everything seems to have blocked and maybe more deliberate work, maybe conversations need to be had in that regard, and what economically, it looks like, to be equal. Yeah. And to be free for everyone to be free economically, because political freedom seems like something that everyone has kind of achieved. But when you look at things, economically, they still reflect very much what aparthied it wanted to achieve.
Trae Holiday 07:37
Wow. So it sounds like, you know, honestly, there's a lot of work left to be done. And, you know, that brings me to your work, right. I mean, a lot of this is about kind of correcting the wrongs of the past. And it sounds like you know, that's really where you guys are down there. So tell us a little bit more about what you do with Social Justice Coalition and what does the Social Justice Coalition do?
Mandisa Dyantyi 08:03
So the Social Justice Coalition was started in 2008. And it's a strange story because they were started to respond to the so called xenophobic attacks. And in 2008, there was like a spate of xenophobic attacks in South Africa, in Cape Town in Joburg in Devon, and the way townships that were hotspots, right? And Khayelitsha was one of those Khayelitsha is the township that we are based in is the biggest in Cape Town.
Trae Holiday 08:38
And when you say xenophobia, I just want to make sure that are these like kind of racial incidents amongst whites against Blacks? How is that kind of dynamic?
Mandisa Dyantyi 08:48
So what that looks like in the South African context is clashes between black South Africans and black Africans from other countries. So it's really a black poor people fighting and scraping for resources. And so because foreign nationals are the minority, so they were the ones being attacked at the time. And I think mostly when when we talk about about xenophobia and xenophobic attacks, we talked about it as if Black South Africans hate other Africans. And we we don't delve deep to think about what that is and why that is. And that's why I'm saying that it was just Black Africans scraping for resources because unemployment is high. People are either unemployed or under employed or underpaid. And so everyone is frustrated. And you know, when when people are frustrated, they look for outlets, yeah, right. And the most vulnerable of the people is going to be the outlet of people's anger. And and and for a nationals black foreign nationals, we that outlet of anger. And so the FTC was formed by then. organizations that were working in Kaniacha together with community members of Khayelitsha. At the time I think the biggest people's movement was the treatment action campaign, which was campaigning for access to a ARVs during President Thabo Mbeki's tenure
Trae Holiday 10:40
ARVs?
Mandisa Dyantyi 10:42
Antiretroviral drugs for HIV. In trying to intervene, they and in trying to understand why people we being violent towards one another or why it looked like South Africans, Black South Africans were being violent towards other Black Africans and trying to understand what the causes of that way this organization was formed. Right. And a lot of things a lot of factors play in in xenophobia and how that plays itself out. But I think two of the things that came out at the time when when comrades were sort of trying to understand how we respond, and we issues of access to service delivery, things like access to basic sanitation services, and there was a question of Safety and Justice. And that came about because when people were trying to respond to these attacks, and trying to get people to safety and trying to get the police to respond, there were no police to respond. Bodies were either overburdened by work or just not interested. And so it raised questions about the kind of police services that we are receiving. And I know that's, that's quite different from your narrative. That side in terms of how you view policy and how you talk about policy. And so maybe we can get into that later. But so two strands of work were developed as the thematic areas of the STC. And that was access to basic services. And the program that focused on that was called the local government program. And we also had the Safety and Justice program. So those programs very clearly defined what their focus would be, one would focus on the upgrading of informal settlements. And I believe that in other parts of the world, they're called slums. And so focusing on a dignified existence for people staying in informal settlements, and what that looks like. And our entry point was to say, people who are staying informal settlements deserve dignified sanitation at the very least, yes. And then also through our safety ancestors to say that people deserve protection. When they will report crime, they deserve to be responded to and to protect with respect in in that in dealing with that crap. And so that's how the STC came to be. So we now focus on access to basic services for people staying in informal settlements. And I mean, our constitution says that everyone has the right to dignity to safety and to life. And that those are the things that we focus on to say, What does dignity look look like for people staying in informal settlements? What does saying everyone has the right to safety? What does safety look like for everyday experiences of people staying in informal settlements? Right to Life? How do we how do people experience their right to life in informal settlements? And so that's the work that we've been doing over the years. And we have been in existence in existence for 12 years now since 2008. Yeah.
Trae Holiday 14:22
Wow. And so that that really gave us such a great breakdown of the Social Justice Coalition. And how about yourself, how did you yourself, get into this work that you're doing today?
Mandisa Dyantyi 14:36
So I grew up in a township. It's right close to Khayelitsha, where we are now it's called fully. And then my dad's a pastor. My parents are pastors, so I'm a PK - Pastor's Kid - and Cape Town, if you want to see a clear depiction of appetites, Special planning, Cape Town is the place to go. If you want to see how geographically people were divided up among along racial lines, even in how they interacted with each other, even in how communities and the city is planned, Cape Town is the place to be. So I grew up in a township, but because most economic services you will find in the city center, so we interacted with the city in that way that you came in, with a taxi minibuses that we call taxis, and you left to go back to your homes, the township, which is like 30, 35 kilometers out of the city. And I think I found that even as a child, I found that quite interesting that the community I stayed in, was a sole laughter than everyone sitting upon on top of each other, there are shacks, there are former houses, it's packed, and you go to town, if the taxi was to pass the airport. For us, the airport is where everything is just divided. When you go past the airport, things start to be clean. And you begin to see lawns, you begin to see green tea, as you begin to see this beautiful, beautiful world that you don't have access to, that you interact with as either a visitor, a student, or a worker. Right. And it was never a place where we belonged in or belonged to, it was never placed a place we felt ownership off as people staying in the townships because townships are really in the outskirts of the city. So there was always that interest for me. But there was also an in in the townships and in rural areas in South Africa. I don't know how black people interact with the economy that side. But with us, there's always this idea that I want to get out of the township I want to study, go to university, get a nice job and get out of the township and go to stay in the suburbs. And so that was my ideal world look as to be as good as I can be at school. Because that's my ticket out. So once I finished my degree, which is grade 12. I don't know what the equivalent -
Trae Holiday 17:46
High school. Yeah, yes.
Mandisa Dyantyi 17:48
Once I finished high school, I thought I wanted to be an accountant, because I was taught that's where the money's at. So but I couldn't because my mentor was terrible. So I was told no. But it was it was amazing. Because when they said no, you can't do accounting, one of the administrators at university said but there's this cross that is called political science. I it just was like, Hey, I just want to study so I jumped right in. And for the first my first day, I hated it with a passion. I was like, I'm just doing this because I need to do this, I need to get a job. But in my second year, thanks to my two tutors. I fell in love with politics because I think it answered that question that I had as a child to say, “Why are they these inequalities? Why do we find ourselves where we found ourselves”, right? And so the political science as a study gave me say, maybe language to understand and talk about inequalities. And so I pursued politics until I didn't until another level and then I went to work. And then came back and did my masters. And then once I finished my master's, I was looking for an education coordinator. And I had experience in that. So I applied and the sort of way impressed and I got that job, thank God. And a year in, I was elected to be the deputy general secretary. And what that is, is the equivalent of a deputy director of the organization. And because we're a social movement, right, so they the leaders of the organizations are elected by the members of the organization, which are in different communities. So a year in are sort of thrown into the deep end to say lead us - so I took that together with my colleague who just left the STS at the end of August. And so yeah, I've been In this for three and a half years now in this leadership position, but from the beginning of this month, I'm now the director of the STC. Yeah. So that!
Trae Holiday 20:13
Congratulations!
Mandisa Dyantyi 20:14
Thank you. It's quite a daunting job. But yeah!
Trae Holiday 20:19
Well, I really appreciate that context and the history. And it sounds like there are so many things, honestly, that are similar to our lived experience over here as Black Americans. And when you talk about the difference between kind of like this, you know, what we may consider urban areas or inner city, in some cities, they would say, you know, like the projects or, you know, the, the hood or whatever, but for first Seattle, we don't really have like, projects necessarily, we know, we don't really have these, like high pockets of poverty that are concentrated in certain areas. But what we do have is high high inequalities, exactly what you're experiencing. So understanding that there are certain neighborhoods that have been invested in over the course of time. And that investment leads to higher propensity for life, right? Like you, you are able to do whatever you want, you get opportunities, you know, you know, you're gonna get a great job, your life expectancy is longer, because you have access to all these resources. So when we start to dive in to a lot of the statistics around this, we see that there are many disparities that are created through this kind of lifestyle. So there's always this kind of the haves and the have nots. And for us, in this country, a lot of that wealth has really resided in the white population. And just before we take our first break, I wanted to ask you about the racial dynamics that you also experience between township and the suburbs? Is it similar to this kind of racial divide that we see here in America?
Mandisa Dyantyi 22:04
I think it's very similar in that, and maybe more glaring in in South Africa, because where you are economically is likely to align with racial divides in that if you are Black, you are likely to be poor. And if you are white, the likelihood is that you're well off, right. And so even even in how people will stay in who has access to the city, that too, is along along racial lines. The people that will have access to the city, the people that will have easy mobility within the city are likely to be white people more than that are likely to be Black. So yeah, when we talk about access to service delivery, when we talk about people who have no access to adequate service delivery, we lightly talking about Black and colored people. And so yeah, so that's how the salaries sort of plays itself out when you're talking about unemployed people. Those are Black people, and very unlikely white people. So yeah, hence maybe I said at the beginning that how we envisioned a united South Africa was that everyone whether Black or white was going to be somehow on the same level. But we haven't seen that happening 26 years.
Trae Holiday 23:40
Wow, wow, this is such a great discussion with you, Mandisa, we are gonna take a quick break, and we're gonna get right back into it after this break. But you guys are listening to Equity Rising. Stay tuned, everyone, we'll be right back. And now it's time for the chime in. In this segment, we bring in voices from our community to see what they have to say.
Teme Wokoma 24:05
My name is Teme Wokoma. I'm a central district resident. Well, really the importance of equitable development and CD reaches beyond low income housing, because that's just a pacifier for the damage that has been done. Equitable development in the central district looks like actual institutions that are crafted created not only from the blueprint, but to the programming, to the staff, to the marketing, all coming from people of color - people who are directly impacted - people who have lived experience. That's what equitable development means. To me in the central district. It means creating programs to allow Black families to stay in their homes, to innovate their spaces and learn how to create multiple streams of income. So they can pass on legacy well, so they can pass on legacy, intellectual property, because a lot of times, you know, you see your parents do it. You see your grandparents do it, but the intellectual property is not being passed down. So you can sustain that for yourself. And so it's beyond putting someone up, you know, an $800. You know, one bedroom is actually saying, “I realized that your family has been displaced from this neighborhood. How can I get you this fund to buy a new home here? How can I get you into financial literacy programs in support programs? How can I help you farm your land? So you're not spending so much overhead on grocery stores and companies that don't give a fuck about you? How can I help you? And not how can I move you around? Because you've been displaced? or How can I pacify you or put you in a cage because I don't know what to do with you anymore?” So I think low income is a great band aid. And we all need band aids, but when when it's time to heal, you need to rip that band aid off and you actually have to focus on the root of the problem, the root of the sore, what caused it and so equitable, whatever the question was, because y'all know, y'all… Listen, it's important to Black folk, because it actually gives us this ability to sustain who we are inside and out.
Marta Bakke 26:01
My name is Marta Bakke. And I am a business owner here in South Seattle, Washington. And to me, affordable housing in the Central District means bringing our people back letting Black people know that they are welcome in their city, and that they don't have to go disperse to the outer skirts of the city, that the city loves them. And they're they're needed here. Yeah, that's what that means to me. I feel like it's welcoming.
Trae Holiday 26:34
Thanks to everybody who joined us for the Chime-in. And now back to the show. Thank you guys for listening to Equity Rising, we are back with Mandisa of the Social Justice Coalition down there in South Africa. And this has been such an enlightening discussion that we're having you have really laid the foundation for, you know, the the racial context in South Africa, the work of the Social Justice Coalition and your own background. And so I want to get into to this movement, right, a little bit here, because we're seeing a real swell globally, in how things are moving. And and I want to ask you about your work down there in South Africa, in the social Social Justice Coalition, how how is your work actually contributing to this kind of larger movement of, you know, equity work globally?
Mandisa Dyantyi 27:32
What we try to do. I think, to some extent, for me, I don't think we have actually achieved what we are hoping to achieve. Because what we what we see in South Africa, at least is that our government well at local or national level, has no plan for for people staying in informal settlements. And that is because informal settlements are viewed as temporary structures, that they are going to be here for a short period of time, and then they are going to disappear, or people are going to get former houses and informal settlements are going to disappear. But our housing backlog tells us that that's not going to happen, because there are millions of people in that housing list. And there are people that have have been in informal settlements for over 30 years, the informal settlements across here that have been in existence since 1983. Right, and so that shows clearly that informal settlements aren't going anywhere. And therefore there needs to be a plan to say how do we how do we integrate these these communities to the city? How do we blend better for the upgrading of informal settlements to livable spaces? And how do we, in that process continue to be in conversation with the people that stay in these communities? Because these are people these are people with ideas, these are people who are thinking through how to improve their own communities and what is lacking is resources. There's no lack of leadership, there's no lack of ideas, there's no lack of innovation. What people are lacking is just the resources to to improve their own spaces. And so I think what we are working towards, and we've had a lot of challenges to in doing this is to build a coalition and and and a movement of people staying in informal settlements and those are likely Black people, a movement of people that are going to come together to demand dignity because space is way decisions are made in space is the way, people are thinking through the future of South Africa, and open to people staying in informal settlements. These are decisions that are made very far away from where people stay. So our hope is to create our own space where people are able to provide solidarity to one another, to say a certain community needs water. How do we come together as poor Black people staying in informal settlements, to call for that service to be given to these people? How do we hold one another in the process in the struggle for fighting for our dignity, how to hold one another and support one another in that process? Because we, I mean, the last time we saw a strong movement in South Africa was pre democracy. And it was very clear what what people were fighting for, because everyone agreed on who the enemy was. Right? And now a Black government is in place and people are divided. No, they are not the enemy. Okay, we agree. They're not the enemy, but they are not doing what they're supposed to be doing. Right. There's that aspect of it. But there's another aspect of it, which is called white supremacy, right? That is still very much in place. And so if we agreed to say, how do we deal with this things, because the end of apartheid didn't bring an end of white supremacy. White supremacy is still very much in place, even with a Black government in power. And business still has a very white face. Capital sector has a very white face, with the exception of very few Black tender premieres. Tender premieres in South Africa, are the Black people that get tenders through government connections, sometimes sometimes through an honest process of beating, but very few Black people are part of that have joined and the face of capital, but look at it from every corner in every industry, capital is still controlled by white people. And so how do we build a coalition of Black poor people that are going to support one another stand with one another? Demand equality, demand, dignity, demand and overthrow of the system that continues to oppress people, even in a democratic country? I think so we are working towards that to say what does a coalition of people looks like? And of course, we can't focus on everything. Our focus is dignified living for people staying in informal settlements. Yeah. What does that look like? How do we push the government to implement the upgrading of informal settlements into livable spaces, and the there are policies in place that set out exactly how that should be done, how we force our leaders to implement those to make sure that people stay in places that are good for for for people to be staying in. Yeah. And so that's what we that's what we're working towards, and I think our lens, and we try to have a very feminist lens to work because I think my own belief is that if a space is safe for women, if a space is safe for Black women, that space is safe for everyone. Even our planning the seat in our planning how we provide services to people, we are focusing on the most vulnerable in our society, and those are likely to be Black women, right? If our focus is to make sure that a space is livable for Black women, that space is livable for everyone. Because if it's livable for Black women it's livable for their children. And because the job of taking care of the most vulnerable in our families also falls on the shoulders of Black women, right if they if they are people who can't do anything for themselves. Black women are the people that are taking care of those people. So if our focus is Black women and providing safe and livable spaces for Black women, we are taking care of people with disabilities. We are taking care of children, we are taking care of the elderly because if our elderly can't do anything for themselves because they are too old, Black women are likely taking care of the elderly as well. So I think my focus and what I'm trying to drive us to is to say if we have a feminist lens to serve this delivery and the upgrading of informal settlements We are literally taking care of everyone because really Black women are at the bottom of the barrel. So if Yeah, so if we are taking care of that sector of society, we are really solving everyone's problem. Because if you For instance, if we saying, we are bringing water closer to people in people's houses, that means that Black women and their children can actually go to school and go to work, because they don't have the parent or having of having to go fetch water. Right. And so every service that you can look at, if our focus is Black women, Black poor women, we can really make the society livable and safe for everyone.
Trae Holiday 35:46
Wow. I mean, I understand that concept wholeheartedly. And I think that the the different social dynamics make it even more of a prominent statement down there in South Africa, I understand that wholeheartedly, and agree with you, and, and, you know, just listening to you speak just now. And over the course of this interview, I'm realizing how similar the issues are, you know, between America and South Africa, because I'm listening to you talk about this kind of divide amongst the Black community, we deal with that too, right? Where there's some folks in the Black community that the system of capitalism, and you know, hey, tie yourself up by the bootstraps, and you know, working within the system, that's worked for some folks in the Black community. So they're like, Look, these incremental changes, we do these incremental things, that's like, that's what we need to do. And then there's others who are like, Look, we're still looking, you know, over, you're getting crumbs, and basically, that isn't gonna work for us. And so there is this whole thing of, there's a lot of folks, and this is why I like to say community, because there's a difference between folks that are in the community that, oh, this system has worked for me, and then folks in the community where they're like, this system doesn't work. And we need to throw the system out. And one of the things that we've done here, with this coalition of King County Equity, Now, we've really brought together a lot of the individuals, organizations, entities, you know, change makers, leaders, you know, all of that together to really say, how do we change this, right? How do we do things differently, throwing out that system and creating something new? And so there's a similarity there. And then you describe this issue with land and housing, which is so prominent here. That is where a lot of my core work is, that is with Africatown Community Land Trust, literally building housing to bring people who have been gentrified out of their, you know, communities that they've known and love for so long, when they realize “Wait, that that's where we want to, you know, put our investment, and then the investment goes there.” And then people can no longer afford to live in the area, because now the area has all of this major investment. And so there's a lot of issues here between land and housing. And I heard you also talked earlier about programs of safety. And so I wanted to get into it, because what we're seeing right here, and what this movement is showing us in America is that, you know, there's a huge, huge gap of trust between ourselves and policing. We talked about a little earlier that right now, your areas are really being under policed, our areas are being over policed. Right. And, and so there's a new initiative around developing community groups that can do response to some of these calls that the police would get, I think, here in America, just for some context for you, there's been too much determination or dependency on the police. They've been getting all the calls, whether it's a lost cat, or a missing person, or a bomb threat, right? It's just, it's all over the spectrum. And, you know, policing in jails in this country is just exorbitant, right? Like we we jail the most people out of all nations like we it just is become out of whack. And so that's what this movement is really addressing is not only about, you know, the deaths of George Floyd or Breonna Taylor, or even the death of Ahmaud Arbery, which wasn't by police, but also showcases this kind of racial divide in America. But it's it's really about a long standing history of police brutality, you know, police misuse of authority. So I want to get into this with you, you know, you talked about under policing in your areas, what we're doing is trying to work on community based solutions. How are you guys working on this in your in South Africa? And how is the Social Justice Coalition thinking about policing?
Mandisa Dyantyi 39:41
And and just to to, to jump on what you were saying about the relationship between Black people mostly and the police and I think our history sort of dictates that mistrust between Black South Africans and the police because really, they have been the face of silence for Black people for for so long. And I think when apartheid ended, and there were discussions about how now the police force changes, and it changed from being a South African police force, I think or something like that to be South African police service, which the idea is that it they are now providing a service to to communities rather than a force that is policing people's existence, right. But what what we missed there was the fact that the very same police that were captains and leaders of the police and the apartheid was still there. And so if they had been taught to treat Black people as criminals, that wasn't a wasn't going to change, because now they are no longer police with their police service, right? Because for so long, they have been indoctrinated and taught that Black people are criminals, Black people are your target. And you don't engage with these criminals, you beat them up, shoot them, you throw them in your vans and throw them to jail with no trial. And so the engagement has been, I mean, there's no trust, even to this day, there isn't trust between people and the police. And what's strange for us is that mostly our police are Black. Because Black people are the majority in South Africa. So right, but the mistrust is still there. And another lay I think of the challenges that townships are the breeding ground for crime and violence. And so we need a response system, right. And for many of us, the go to place is the police station, reporting, whatever happens in police stations, but because we will have no trust in those in those in that system, people don't report crimes. And in South Africa, the less you report, the less resources you get, because there's that assumption that you don't report therefore there is no crime. At that time, the only reason that people aren't reporting is that they have no faith in this in the system. And so we've tried to engage with the Ministry of police to think through how we improve police services. I mean, in 2012, the STC, together with other many organizations engaged and the Minister of police asked him for a commission of inquiry that was going to look at this breakdown in relations between the community. The focus was Khayelitsha, between the community of Khayelitsha and the police to look at what causes this breakdown, and how we resolve that breakdown. And so the commission finally and there were there were so many fights from the government to say, there is no need for this condition. policing is fine in Khayelitsha, people are happy with how the police service is delivered to them. So there's no need. We even had to take the Minister of police to the Constitutional Court just last chance for the court to declare that look, this commission needs to be set up because there is a need for it. Right. And so it was set up and it looked into policy. And it spoke to the police to the community to very many stakeholders who really were working in this in this Safety and Justice sector. And after that it came up with 20 recommendations to see this is how policing should be improved in South Africa. And the focus was in Khayelitsha. But when you look at those 20 commendations, you can apply them in any township across South Africa because the challenges are the same. And so one of the things that came out from that commission was that townships in South Africa or Khayelitsha in particular has very few police resources such that the police, men and women in Khayelitsha are overburdened because we'll find that each investigator has over 200 dockets open and that are looking at him or her for a response and if that's the case, things are bound to fall into cracks and other cases are bound to be not followed up. People are raped people are killed the people are robbed and no one is getting justice because nothing is happening because too much work is on few people, the shoulders. And so what the commission said at that time was that police resources need to be redistributed. And that didn't mean that South Africa needed to hire more police into the police service. But what it meant was that areas that are well off that have very low rates of crime, because they are safe communities by naturally in terms of how they are built, and who stays the, there are too many resources, they and those resources need to be distributed to areas that need protection. And so we've been working, trying to advocate for that to say, implement those recommendations. And one of those recommendations is what I'm speaking to, to say the redistribution of police resources needs to take place. Another one is recommendation six and recommendations six spoke to this idea, oh, this this notion that I spoke to earlier about informal settlements being temporary spaces, and that even in how the police are trained, and how the police plan their work, there is no guideline in place to say this is how you provide the service to informal settlements. Even the police themselves have no idea how to do that. Because even when they are trained, even in their own strategic claddings, there's no plan to provide that service to informal settlements, which means that millions and millions of South Africans and thought about and even considered when the Ministry of Police is planning how to provide and protect South African citizens. And so that's another one that we are trying to engage on to say, Let's come together, we work in these communities, right? We understand these communities, let's come together with the police to think through what those guidelines should look like.
Trae Holiday 46:59
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A collaborative process.
Mandisa Dyantyi 47:03
Yeah. See, because I mean, the police are trained to police, a perfect suburbs with streets and street names and house numbers and all of that, and informal settlements don't have that. Right. And so it needs community members and organizations that are working in the communities together with the police and other parts of the government. Because for instance, we also have a problem of public lighting in informal settlements. Right, even if the police have now there's guidelines to say this is how we provide a service, it's dark at night. So they can't even access the area. Now, local government needs to come in come to the party to provide public lighting so that safety can actually be a thing and a reality for people staying in informal settlements. So we're trying to engage different stakeholders really to say how do we together make sure that informal settlements are safe and livable spaces? where every service can be provided without making people feel less of human beings, you know…
Trae Holiday 48:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's very interesting, the approach in terms of uplifting the informal settlements to make sure that they're livable spaces, versus like developing in the suburbs for, you know, these millions of Americans to integrate into the suburbs. And this is just like a question off the top just listening to you speak. But I just want to hear a little bit from you about the reasons why that's not an option in terms of like, Hey, we can, you know, create more space for, you know, folks to begin to integrate into, you know, these areas that are you know, they've been historically kept out of.
Mandisa Dyantyi 49:00
You know, that's that's definitely an option. We have a sister organization called the Ndifuna Ukwazi and Reclaim the City. And they are doing that work to say, “we can not only just talk about the outskirts and how we develop the outskirts, but people they who because most people in the informal settlements work in town and in the suburbs, right.” And so there's that constant call and I think Reclaim the City has done an amazing, amazing job to say, we are reclaiming this city. We belong to the city, and they have engaged the government and I think we together with them, I think the most headache causing organizations for the city of Cape Town, and I think Reclaim the City has tried to tackle the issue to say that a vacant piece the vacant buildings in the city, that People can occupy that can be developed to be low cost housing spaces that people can stay in. But also the vacant pieces of land that are cost causes. Some of them are being sold to private property developers for next to nothing in this plant, and this spaces could be spaces for affordable housing for people to be able to live in town to live closer to where they work, and where they go to school. And so there's always this collaborative effort between these organizations to say, we can talk about how we develop spaces where people are, but also there's this urgent need for people to have ownership of the city. And be way big business is where people are comfortable and sitting, and in safety. So I mean, the occupied buildings in town, in C point C point is like a very poor suburb with very expensive houses, and apartments they've occupied there, they've also occupied in Woodstock, which is very close to the city of Cape Town. And also they've engaged the city to say, how do we get together with them, we've challenged sales of pieces of land, to say you can be selling well located land when people are sitting in the outskirts and spending almost 40% of their incomes on transport, trying to get to work. So there's that work being done. And it would be interesting for you to engage with that organization. I can give you hundreds.
Trae Holiday 51:38
Yeah, absolutely. connect me. Yeah, no, that's just that's exactly what we're doing here in Seattle. So it's really interesting, because another part of my work is with Africa, town community land trust. And that's exactly what we're doing. So it's really great to hear that there's dual efforts happening with regards to land and housing.
Mandisa Dyantyi 51:58
Yeah, no, Mandisa, Shandu, leads that work in town. And I think would be amazing for you guys to check. This, like so much similarities in the work that you guys do so. So what we try to do is to buy it from different angles to make sure that we are not just focusing on one on one thing. So yeah,
Trae Holiday 52:22
I love this Mandisa. So you guys have a really great robust approach that you're taking with land and housing and safety. And and so I just want to ask, before we end our interview today, what are some of your lessons learned? You've been at SJC. Now you said for, you know, for some years, over three years, you know, what is it? What are some of the lessons learned some of the takeaways that you're you've gained from being there?
Mandisa Dyantyi 52:48
That it's impossible to do anything, if we work in silos. Right? If every organization is in their own corner, trying to be the best organization right and competing with one another, for funding, and all of that, trying to outdo one another in the media to look like the SEC is doing more than equal education and reclaim the city. I've learned that for us to be able to do this work, and succeed in it, we need to come together and build more solidarity. And we need to show up more for one another. Right. And I mean, just with the organizations that we work with this, now, this rise of young Black women, as leaders of this organization, organizations, it's exciting and scary in that leading organizations has never been a Black woman phenomenon, right. And there are so many challenges that make it impossible for young Black women to succeed and to break through. And so and, and, and I think most of us are used to having white men in power such that Black woman's face in power scares people. And there's this thought that it's going to fail, but I think it's if it fails, it says because people aren't being supported to do the work that they need to do. Because you enter the door and people are already like, yo, it's gonna fail, right? And what I've learned is that we need to show up for one another. I can't be wanting to be better than other leaders in other organizations. Because if they aren't breaking through, it means I'm not breaking. Mandisa and I've spoken about her she's the leader of the Ndifuna Ukwazi. If that door is close to her, that means I'm going to have to come in fight for for the door to open because you If it's open for him, it's open. For me, it's open for any other young Black leader. And that will come after us. And I think it's upon us to make it a norm for black young Black women to be in leadership positions. And for us to be taken seriously, because literally, we are the face of struggle. And we understand what struggle in South Africa in every part of the world looks like. And if we are the people leading the fight against inequality, then I think these organizations are in good hands. And there's hope there's hope for for success, there's hope that the generations that come after us won't have to fight the fights we are fighting. Because the idea was that we will have to fight the fights that we are fighting, but here we are, let's make sure that the generation that comes up to us doesn't have to, to be dealing with the I don't wanna swear. But yes.
Trae Holiday 56:01
Yeah, we don't want to be dealing with any of that any mess, basically, I agree wholeheartedly. And, and I just want to say to that, one of the things that I recognize about some of the differences you and I are experiencing in our lived experience, right, you being in South Africa, and there being so many Black people, like it's predominantly Black people, right? Yet these ideals of the, you know, the same kind of colonial constructs around white supremacy and white privilege still exist where you are, and here in America, we are still such a small percentage of the population. And in terms of the Black community that there was this idea that well, even if we all got together, we couldn't, you know, we we wouldn't be able to do this fight. Well, one of the things that's really giving me some real positive energy and joy and excitement and inspiration is that this movement that we're seeing right now, globally, is bringing about a lot of people to understand that these disparities can no longer exist in our world, that we need to do the work collectively, like you just said, collectively doing this work so that we can have equity for all people. And I think that, you know, there are so many areas of this world that have these huge disparities. But one of the things that we see globally, is that there's something going on with people who are whites, and those who are non-whites. And so there needs to be like a whole shifting of the mindsets and ideologies that really began to shape, you know, our construct of what social, you know, connection is what a social kind of construct even looks like, you know, what is this hierarchy? Why do we have it amongst ourselves. And so I'm very inspired by the work that you're doing down there in South Africa, I thank you so much. And I'm also inspired by this global awakening that is really happening. And so I really, I'm feeling like, I'm just giving y'all some energy, because you guys got the numbers, you know, like now is the time to collectivize all those people that are in the townships in the unincorporated settlements, right? Like, Hey, you guys, if you all get together, don't fight amongst each other. Y'all get together and show this government, you know, what I mean? what it is you need and demand it from them, and enter these areas. So I'm so thrilled and motivated and inspired by the work of your your movements out there. And I'm glad that globally, we're all kind of having this awakening that we have to do this work together. And collectively, is there anything that you want to add before we end our interview today?
Mandisa Dyantyi 58:51
Just to say, thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you guys do that side? Because I think because what you do is always out there, we're able to see and learn from you guys, and how in the face of so much violence. You guys push on how it looks like, literally everything is against you. And you and you are still here saying is it's possible. And I think I mean, the uprising after George Floyd's death and how as much as that was a very sad moment for us. It was also a moment of awakening. And I think not just in America, for us in South Africa as well. And I think across across Africa, to say, look, we've tolerated this ill treatment for centuries. And even to this day, we are not saying we want to overthrow people and kill people, right? We just want to be treated with dignity we want to be recognized as human for human beings, and how you guys have articulated that need, and that struggle and how you continue to lead that work, and maybe also debunking the myth that it's all good to be American. It's nice, and everyone wants to go to America because it's so beautiful. Right? But what you continue to show us is the truth and the true experiences of Black people, and that this dehumanization of Black people isn't just happening in Africa. It's happening in America. And it's not just an American phenomenon. It's something that we all need to fight against, from every corner of the world. Until, you know, until Steve Nichols said something during his time that we want the freedom to call our bodies our own. Until we could do that until we can do that as Black people until we can stand without fear until we can enter spaces and know that we are respected. The fight doesn't stop and thank you guys for for using this spotlight that is on you to show us that the fact that doesn't spell that we want the freedom to our bodies, our own and whatever it takes. We will push and fight until that has been achieved.
Trae Holiday 1:01:39
Word. Absolutely. I'm so inspired right now and I'm holding back all of my tears of joy because I'm like, you are phenomenal. I will definitely be keeping in contact with you Mandisa, I thank you so much for being on the show today and for blessing our listeners with you know your story and your passion. It is coming through so clearly for me right now and I'm so inspired by what you're doing. We'll definitely be in together in space when the travel allows. I'm coming to visit. I don't care so it's happening. Thank you again, this has been an amazing show. You guys have been listening to Equity Rising a podcast from King County Equity Now. I'm your host, Trae Holliday and this has been a great episode. Thank you all for listening.