Equity Rising S1 : Episode 9
equity in ultimate with shanye crawford; Atlanta, GA
What do you know about equity in athletics—and more specifically: in the niche, relatively new, and initially very white pocket of Ultimate Frisbee? From this very specific point of reference, Shanye Crawford, founder and CEO of Disc Diversity, talks with Trae about the unique opportunities to foster change on and around the playing field. As she organizes an all-Black tour for Fall of 2021, Shanye says that, “rather than looking to see what has been done, I intend to use Ultimate Frisbee to establish the athletic standard for equity.”
This week’s Chime In features J’Lynn Matthews, Colton Green, and Austin Hegmon.
This episode was produced by Lili Gu, Linnea Ingalls & Julia Drachman and edited by Josh Berl.
Transcript
Lili Gu
Following a summer of high demand for books and trainings about anti-racism, what's the difference between an equity framework built by white liberalism, and one rooted in Black liberation? Hi, i’m Lili Gu, and I'm a producer for Equity Rising, the podcast that examines how we're shaping history and tells the story of the current racial justice movement. In this episode, our host Trae meets Shanye Crawford, an educator and competitive athlete fighting for racial and socioeconomic equity in the white dominant sport of Ultimate Frisbee. Trae and Shanye discuss our responsibility to be critical of communities we love, the unspoken power dynamics in sport, and how to stop trimming branches and go to the root.
(music)
Trae Holiday
Well, I just want to welcome everybody to equity rising with me. Trae Holliday. I'm so excited to be bringing Shanye Crawford on of Ultimate Frisbee, we're going to be learning all about the ways that the game of ultimate can be infused with equity as well because we know equity needs to be in all things welcome, Shayne.
Shayne Crawford
Thank you Trae what an amazing intro! That's right - equity can be infused into all things, let's get it!
Trae Holiday
Absolutley, and you know what - I'm really excited because like I was telling our podcast team - you are our first guest on equity rising to talk about athletics and the infusion of equity in athletics. So honestly, ultimate frisbee is such an anomoly to many people but before we jump into it I've always got to ask my guests - First things first - how are you taking care of you?
Shayne Crawford
Okay, that is a great question and I think it is the best place to start but if I'm honest - i think it's because I self identify as a caregiver I am newly recognizing that I too am someone who is in need of and deserving of care. So I'm not great at it, but I am beginning to take care of myself in this way and I got to shout out the Nap Ministrity out of ATL Georgia the Nap Bishop - I'mma hit you with a quote: this is how I am beginning to understand and exercise my right to rest. The bishop says "until capitalism crumbles, we will have to be inventive, subversive, flexible and committed to radical community care to sustain a personal rest practice and collective rest movement. She says our refusal to donate our bodies - i love that - to a capitalist system and align with white supremacy will be our foundation to creating a rested future. Are you serious?! That sounds good and I'm saying it strong but I'm learning what that means and I'm trying to walk in it and take care of myself.
Trae Holiday
I mean - chill! Yes!! Black woman magic over here - that's what I'm talking about. And honestly, so much of that statement is so true when I think even about myself and just trying to explain a lot of these elements - you know where we are today to my sons. You know cause so much of it is embedded in the ways that we envison and see the world and for them and their young impressionable selves - they're 15 and 7 now - just had their birthdays and honestly talking to my 15 year old now I'm like man, this is going to be the work of you too - your generation. dismantling some of these things that really have become so normalized in our society so thank you for that. You know absolutley - that's infused into my next question about your background and what kind of got you into ultimate frisbee?
Shayne Crawford
I am 37 so it'll be a long story! Just kidding. My name is Shanye Crawford and I am presently in Atlanta Georgia, and I have to say that in 1996 I was just a girl but I thought that the Olympic Games put my city on the map! All I am willing to say is that I am from a place that stands to really make history in a meaningful way and I am looking forward to new beginnings that will be brought because of what the place I'm from is going to do. What do I do? I do so many things, I was mostly a foreign language high school teacher - I did that for 10 years, and if I'm honest I was excellent. I taught French and Spanish, not in that order, and if I'm honest I think that was excellent because to this day, I would try to be and do all of the things that I asked of the students. And I think that that's a great way to be, but it got me in trouble. So instead of telling my kids reach for the stars, the sky is the limit whist living my life doubled over as a fraud I left education in search of a platform and that platform was ultimate frisbee. I had already been a player for years, let's see, I met the sport I ran into it in the University of Georgia in 2003 after college I began my club career in ultimiate frisbee on a coed team - catch this name - Holes and Poles! Okay, I'm gonna move right along. I have also played in the women's divisions, Masters divisions. I am a professional player I've gotten paid to play ultimate is not enough to rub together. But I've gotten paid to play ultimate. I'd say the pinnacle of my ultimate career was playing with the best team on earth. And I'm right about this one that is Medellin, Colombia's revolution. Okay, so I left education, and I came to ultimate looking for a platform Why? in athletics, and entertainment, Black people are allowed to shine, right? So I got in trouble in education. But I thought, well, I'm a great athlete, and I'm a superb human. Let me try to talk my talk here. That is how I got to where I currently am. Should I stop there or go into the details of the stuff that I'm doing? Well, I'm doing?
Trae Holiday
Well, no, I think that that was a great start. And there are some other pieces of context there. Because I think not a lot of people even probably know that, you know, there are certain teams, there's tournaments, there's division, I mean, there's a whole host of activity happening in ultimate, and you really have been a part of multiple facets of it. So I do know that you know, there's been certain teams you've been on that also contribute to that. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about some of the mainstream history versus some of the history of the Black and ultimate like POC ultimate kind of teams.
Shayne Crawford
Okay. So I would say, generally that people are throwing frisbees in the late 60s, right. But it didn't turn into or it wasn't formally dubbed ultimate until 1970. And that was in Maplewood, New Jersey. And I was born in Jersey, so let's go, I get it honest. And that was at Columbia High School. And so after it was kind of birthed there, the Columbia high school grads, took it to their colleges, and it just took off, it spread like wildfire in an intercollegiate sort of way. And so I began to play in college. And I didn't notice because I was raised in a white world. It's a very white sport. And it makes sense if it's transmission is at the university level, right? And so since the history of ultimate is lacking color, for lack of a better term, so there's MLB Mets masters of the B, and they are a team established in the late 70s. Not just a team, the first and only all Black team, insane to this day, established in the late 70s. In Connecticut by Jerome Stallings and David love then a little bit later in the late 90s 1997, there would be DTB that's downtown Brown. And that was first a men's team comprised only of minority players, but then that later expanded into mixed and women's teams but it's life and its vitality was really limited to the west coast. Okay, so I guess perhaps I was the leg of the East Coast contingency Yeah. With the color of ultimate in Atlanta. 2019. That was, rather than having a team like dtb to go to tournaments. We had an elite showcase game. It was a whole event, man, we met, we scrimmage, we had lunch, had a discussion on equity, did a youth clinic, my god played an incredible showcase game that had a rain delay. And universe point that is game to 20. Both teams have 19 my god, it was insane. So even as white as the history has been, perhaps because it's been so white, there's been an opportunity to splatter it with color. And this community is pretty accepting, from what I've been able to observe.
Trae Holiday
Okay, so that's a really great history, a full lineup. So much activity, as we have you on here. I mean, obviously, there's room for equity here and I want to hear a little bit about some of the kind of challenges the intersection of you know, socio economic status and racial inequities that really kind of play into the kind of environment of ultimate How has that been? Because you're talking about these teams have color, obviously, it's been a predominantly white space, but how has it been for you as a Black woman, you know, bringing your brilliance into it in dealing with some of those dynamics.
Shayne Crawford
If I'm honest I'll say that to start ultimate was a safe haven for me seriously, it was. And that probably has much to do with the fact that I was still largely asleep, to the great injustices that were being perpetuated against me sincerely. But as I grew, and I learned as a person and in the sport, things that were of the world inequities and discrimination and mistreatment that were of the world creeped on into Ultimate Frisbee, right, so I felt like I had to say something, because if I did it, what other safe place did I have on the earth, that might sound dramatic, but there's a lot to that, in Ultimate Frisbee on this continent. I would say that the climax of a player's career would be to be able to represent Team USA in a world championship, right? I thought that and I pursued after that. And even in my mind, I thought, if a player of color or a Black player could get an invitation to a tryout, even that is real progress, right, I thought. And then I talked to a dear friend and phenomenal player who's Black, who got an invite to that tryout. And what she said was striking to me, and I'm just gonna give it to you. She said, two out of more than 50 tryouts were POC. One was Black. That was her. The majority of the white tryouts had been meeting at invitation only camps like those for years. And what that meant was, even though she was standing next to them, in terms of the tryout process on field, chemistry, comfortability confidence, even before she entered her first trail, she realized she was last in line. And that is the history of our sport. To make it more general, I'll say this, it doesn't cost any money at all to play frisbee, it seems unfair, that it's closed to us, there is no reason for us not to be there. Unless there are forces against our being there. I would also say that, and I love this community. And I'm always nervous to speak critically of it. But I have a duty to speak critically of it, because I love it. I feel like and I don't know if I can communicate what I'm seeing. The absence of perspective is gross. It is great. And it's gross. And I feel like it is polluting even the idea of sportsmanship and athleticism, by way of fortifying white supremacy, hear me out. If the system is mostly white, sure, white people are going to lose, but they're also going to win. And so if your examples of winners in the top and the best are all white, I feel like oh, we're part of the problem. We're part of the problem.
Trae Holiday
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think so much of it is that though, right to where a Black person enters into a specific industry, we see that there's not much diversity there, you know, as a Black person, you start to go, Well, wait a minute, how do I open up this opportunity for other people that are like me, how do I make sure that this space is inclusive of them, that is caring for, you know, those that are outside? So like, that's just maybe something that a lot of Black folks just really carry on their backs when they're entering specific industries. And, you know, clearly, there's always going to be that, especially in the beginning, that push and pull of it right, when you start to infuse the language to talk about inclusion, to talk about diversity, to talk about equity, right in anything. And it seems like you may have experienced some of that, you know, kind of push back a bit when it comes to, you know, some of the organizations that you've really been involved with, and I want to get into that right now. Because I think that there's a huge push around, you know, trainings of equity and ally ship and what it really means to be connected to, you know, movements of equity and inclusion, and and how folks really think about this kind of rainbow style of America, this melting pot that you know, that we've called it, and how much melting is really going on, right where it's like, melting
Shayne Crawford
And should melting be the goal? Beacuse I'm me!
Trae Holiday
right, Right? Can it just be a mixed salad, right? We're all in there, all the different ingredients are bringing what they bring best to it, and they don't have to melt to anything. So I do want to ask you about that. How has it been in terms of these spaces? And again, you kind of pushing for that realizing, hey, there's a real energy here or character of maybe they don't want us in these spaces. So have you really navigated that and What are some of the things that you've done to try to change that?
Shayne Crawford
I'm going to try to answer this question in two ways, how it's felt from the top down and how it's felt amongst the people. And I'm thinking about our democracy, if I'm honest, so how it's felt from the top down, and I'll name one organization that I have no ill will towards, but I helped to found the brand color of ultimate. And it was an elite game for players of color, which I think is great. But I am moving towards an end to the fight. Like I want to wrap it up. And so I think that in order to do that, you have to go right to the root in my mind, oppression, call it whatever you want to it is a huge, uninvited intrusive garden weed, okay. And then the husband mend is so worried about taking it down, because it is going to leave an enormous gap shame. So instead of taking it down, the tendency is to trim the low hanging branches of things like gender equity, said a woman. But even in trimming those low hanging branches, the thing about plants is those branches fall into the ground, turn into food, and nourish that sucker bump trimming branches, I want to go to the root, I want to hack at the base, I want to go to the bottom. And in my experience, from my understanding, in my life, and in 2020, Black people are at the root. So I want to focus all of my energy and my resources there from the top. That's scary. What? because it's different. It hasn't been seen before. And I suspect that people in power, they're typically white, they know one way to rule. And it is at another person's expense. They don't realize that there's another option. That's not my goal, to flip the script, I want equity. amongst the people, I'd say just like with our democracy, we disagree with our head, that people are for equity, because they rub up against it every day in their normal lives. Fortunately, fortunately, their normal lives are presently without Frisbee. And for that reason, because of a sport, we're becoming better humans at a time that it is being demanded.
Trae Holiday
Wow, I mean, I've loved that you did that from the top down. And then from the ground up, like so much of my work at King County equity. Now, the things that I've been doing with, you know, my work with Africa town, you know, it's all of this work, even at converge media, like those three kind of organizations and movements that I'm really have embed myself in, there's always kind of that, right. And we think about on the media tip, we think about major media, and major media, not ever really being able to tell the stories of like the community on the ground. And so it was a need to have Community Media that's like, Look, we're going to tell these real stories, we're going to Yeah, and we're going to educate our community on some of that stuff that's happening up there, but we're gonna stay, you know, grounded here, you know, so that our community is informed and engaged. And then thinking about the relational approach of Africa town and King County equity. Now, it's so relational and community that it really does come from, like that web of relationships, but what you just described, and that's why so many of us that are on the ground, really work to pull together that people power because we get it we understand that wholeheartedly. How has it been for you? Because you just said it, like people on the ground Get it? You know, they are ready for it? How do we penetrate those who have the power so that they hear the voices of those on the ground?
Shayne Crawford
Who how do we penetrate those in power? I think the best illustration I have ever seen took place this year and it took place in the form of regular Black people demanding ordinary justice. And so from my understanding, it takes a lot of people, it takes a lot of small people, a lot of discounted people to come together so that collectively our voice can become a scream. I am having some success because in my company, I do two things. I am attempting to change the world in two ways. One is by equity consulting for ultimate frisbee team. So I am doing all I can to rub up against ordinary ultimate players in the confines of a pandemic. And rather than explaining what I do, can I just read you a testimonial from A satisfied client? This is everything to me, I actually taught her I taught her Spanish in high school. And then she gifted me to her college team because that's how ultimate works, okay? "Working with Shanye and discovered diversity helped me understand that racism works on both an institutional and individual level. And with that knowledge helped me identify action steps that I could make sustainable through the supportive community, and that that community was often my frisbee team. Additionally, I think working with DD kind of helped me think of care as an attitude and a way that you can move through the world to redistribute resources that you have, whether that's time money, a skill set, emotional support, that at least in my case, has really been accumulated as a result of racial hierarchies." Can you believe this? This is what I hope to do. But I have no idea if I'm gonna land it. But let's go. Let's go.
Trae Holiday
Yeah. See, that's what I'm talking about. You can't get any better than like a satisfied customer. I mean, that's really what it's about, ultimately, and I want to address something here, because I know that you know, we were talking a bit earlier just about the dynamics of race and how it kind of plays out in Ultimate Frisbee. How do you feel about the CO opting and the eraser nature of some of this? Right? I mean, you were just talking about the trimming off of those brandches and you know food for the tree, but that is really alive and well in so many different industries. And, you know, although it's unfortunate to hear I'm not shocked by hearing that it also lives alive and well and ultimate frisbee
Shayne Crawford
And I hate hearing alive and well. But yes, this grossness is thriving, co opting in eraser, I can say that personally, attempts have been made to erase me, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. Because I think the thing is, half of the time, people aren't trying to be bad humans. And so they aren't even aware that they're having how I have participated in CO opting in eraser in two forms. First, guilty, I'm guilty. I participated in a tournament with my color of ultimate team. Oh, man, it was gonna be great. We actually won the tournament, we did a showcase game. It was wonderful visibility for people of color. Good job, we're patting ourselves on the back. I am going to screenings, and I'm consulting. Oh, my gosh, it's just the best thing ever. And then I learned much later, after I have added myself to this history, that the tournament was founded by two Black women, oh, my God, whose names I had never even heard. And yet, when people think of this tournament, now, my Black face comes up. That's disrespectful, guilty. And then Personally, I'm not to say this without being mean, I was a part of the group that founded the brand color of ultimate. And then I left that group because we are fighting in different ways, maybe at the root, and then at the low hanging, okay. And so they brought in someone to take my place. I'm like, dang person, if you're listening, I love you. And then so me and that person, were both up for an award, which I want, let's go. And that award was based on since there was no play this season, it was based on our activity in the community towards equity. As I read the description about the person that was also in contention. Every equity accolade was mine. Literally, everything for which that person could be was mine. And I was just like, man, I would feel some kind of way if I didn't, and I did win. And I'm thankful. But I was just like, wow, literally, there are people whose platforms are just another person. But it's louder from their mouth or something. I said a lot. I'm like, Oh, boy.
Trae Holiday
No, no, no, that go, I mean, that's really real. I mean, you're talking about it. And that eraser piece in terms of like, not understanding, you know, the organizing that happened to get to that place. And that is so you know, thank you for being so open and vulnerable there. It just even about your own not understanding pieces of that. Because you know what, that is really real, you know, we had an event happen, and I wanted to make sure it was connected to the ground, right? And it's like, ultimately, it was right, and I'm just giving you that as like a thing. But immediately, I was like, how connected is this to the ground? Because when people want to come in and do amazing things, it's great. But then you go, Wait a minute, do you know there's already people in that community doing those kinds of things and how do you plug in, you don't need to like, hey, like this Let me also recognize that, you know, there's work happening here and that there's already been some elements that, you know, I have not participated in that have gotten us to this place, right?
Shayne Crawford
I am literally standing on shoulders, and I can't even name their names, but I can see better because of their shoulders. It's insane.
Trae Holiday
Oh, man, that was a great answer Shinya. And honestly, it's heartwarming for me to hear that because, you know, I think so many of us, like, you know, we get into this work. And when we're talking about equity, we get into the work. And we feel like, Look, we have a great scope of like, what we're doing kind of mapped out for us, we understand like, what it is, our next step is and what we need to do to get there. But a lot of the times, if we're not plugged in, it happens in silos. We deal with it right here in Seattle. Often I think a lot of folks deal with that. How have you maintained efforts to stay plugged in and connected to Ultimate Frisbee in kind of this larger sense
Shayne Crawford
during the pandemic? You mean?
Trae Holiday
Yeah, absolutely.
Shayne Crawford
Even in addition to the equity sessions that I hold with teams, so this past week, I was invited to do a screening for the tournament that I co opted. So the community that hosted it, like most ultimate communities, is very white. And so they wanted to have some different perspective to help them even as they watch the game, so that they could appreciate it appropriately wonderful. And so they asked me, but I immediately contacted two of my teammates, because Sure, I can go and I wax long. And I love to wax but I thought, wouldn't it be better to just go ahead and as often as possible, give the most full picture as possible. Does that make sense? So I could have gone by myself taking all the shine, which I love, but I didn't. I went and I got my friends. So that, in a sense, I don't know. We together went and spoke on behalf of an entire people who we can't begin to speak for. Yeah.
Trae Holiday
But that's part of it. Right? Part of it is about that little bit of a peek behind the curtain, you know, like, let me see the representation of this thing that I'm not, you know, connected to or familiar with.
(Music)
Lili Gu
This week’s Chime In, you’ll be hearing from three ultimate frisbee athletes who got together to talk about equity in their sport. it’s an incredible conversation and we’re excited to share a little bit of it with you here.
Jay Matthews
I was just thinking about like, representation of people of color and ultimate, you know, like, whenever you think of a person of color, ultimately, first person I think of as a Black man ultimate is, um, Marcus Bromley as like the first person that picture in my head, but you know, you know a bunch of white people's names and ultimate like Bo Kinja, you know, Brody Smith, who barely plays ultimate, but like he's out there, Dylan Freechild, you just know a bunch of bunch of their names. But when I like, you know, Kalief, obviously from Mixtape and Gabriel Hernandez and stuff like you, those are few names that I only know from my involvement of the Twitter ultimate community. But whenever I'm on USAU or any other website, ulti-world and all of that stuff that you know, there are the main ultimate platforms, you barely see those names. You barely see those names advertised. And I'm just questioning the representation of people of color and ultimate.
Colton Green
It's a predominantly white sport that loves to appropriate Black culture in many ways. And I'm not not not a fan of that. Like ultimate was like designed for white people and white people that when you see white people running around appropriating Black culture on the sidelines through music, hairstyles, jerseys, all these language it’s very, very… it turns a lot of people off.
Austin Hegmon
It's very interesting to see like USA ultimate for example or whoever be like have this have these like equity commercials of like yeah, we're all unified. We are all standing up for this that and the third and then you go to like a highlight reel of some college like tournament in Myrtle Beach or wherever you see some white guy on UNC Wilmington put like cornrows... I think everything that we've done so far for the sport has been like devoid of organic Black culture, if that makes sense because I feel like occasionally you do see like Black culture in frisbee, but it's always like Colton said gone through the channel of like, a bunch of weird white people from like, St. Louis or some town not pick on St. Louis or anything but like, you see a bunch of dudes from like Colorado like talking about it. And it's just not the same as like, when it happens through Black people and through organic like means of communication and very apparent when it happens. It feels very even when Black culture is in the sport. It feels white washed.
Colton Green
It kind of feels like white people like made him do it. Yeah. Like it was like, oh, white person made it. It was like, I need you to say this rather than like, the Black player was like, This is what I wanted to say.
Lili Gu
Those voices you heard in order are Jay Mattews, Colton Green, and Austin Hegmon. If you want to hear more from Jay, Colton, and Austin, you’re in luck. We’ll be releasing the full conversation in a special bonus episode next week. So stay tuned for that, and in the meantime, let’s get back to Shanye.
(music)
Trae Holiday
I think that there's so much there's so many great layers, because that's what so much of equity work. I think it's really based around when you were talking about the dichotomy of the top and the bottom. I mean, this is what we're talking about all the time. And I love what you said that folks here, really get it. There's a lot of folks that are on the ground that get it because we're not up in the perch, looking down at everyone else like so already.
Shayne Crawford
Right. Okay.
Trae Holiday
Right, like, we're, you know, we're not there. I mean, so we don't have any choice, but to literally see what's before us take it in dissect it so that we can look at the voids, the holes, the gaps. I feel like that's a lot. I don't want to put the answer there. But I feel like that may be a lot of the reason why you created this company. I want to hear more about the company mentioned it. But is that a little bit of why you did this company? why you do what you do?
Shayne Crawford
Oh, yes, yes. You said so many things. But yes, let me try to boil down why I do this. And I wax long. So I'm going to try to say it in two thoughts. I will say that I have been an avid consumer of social media for three or four years now. And then back in spring of 2020. I started to feel disgusted and disappointed in a whole bunch of dis words at the content that was available to me. And that lasted for a couple of months. And then in May, when I launched I said Shanye stop sitting around being discontent and do something, use your voice add yourself to the conversation to the narrative so I just went for it. That is why I do this because I want people to have another view. Another option another reality. Another reason I do this is because and I'm gonna refer to a book. The book is my grandmother's hands and the author is Resmma Menekem. I do this work. I could say I fight in this way because and Resmma says we will not end white body supremacy or any form of human evil by trying to tear it to pieces. Instead, we can offer people better ways to belong. And better things to belong to. That's why I do it. If people can see, this is not it, that's one thing. And then to be able to give them another option, something better. That is why I'm doing it.
Trae Holiday
Wow, in the name of your company, you were talking about you hold workshops. Tell us a little bit about that in some of these workshops you're actually doing with folks that are in ultimate in Oakland.
Shayne Crawford
So it's called discover diversity. And I am a teacher, and I'm not in the classroom. And my subject is no longer French and Spanish. Actually, technically, it was never foreign language. My subject has always been humanity and life if I'm honest. And so I began to meet with teams, I do 3 90 minute sessions with teams, typically, sometimes teams meet weekly, sometimes it's monthly. I had a team meet from August to December, because they got hit with two hurricanes. Anyway, we come together, and I train with a junior consultant, who is also a Black woman, and she's phenomenal Tootsie leymah out of Georgia Tech. And our goal is to get people to say what that satisfied customer said, but it's really to even change the narrative related to learning about equity, people come to me like, I'm an expert, and I'm like, Hey, I am newly waking up, I am newly joining the fight, I surely have some perspective and some ideas. But what we can do best is learn to look at each other, learn to want to look at each other, and figure out how to link arms, right, so that together we can get this intrusive garden weed out if you're, you know, what I'm saying?
Trae Holiday
I love that. I love that so much. And honestly, I think it you know, a lot of us, you know, that are from the global majority, when we are talking about how things kind of play out here in America, there's almost always this kind of understanding of this unspoken hierarchy around certain things. So you show up, you know, in certain places with that understanding, and it makes you show up in a very specific way. It sounds like you know, cuz I'm loving your energy here, obviously, you give this energy while you're out there. But I want to ask you about that. Because, you know, being in these, you know, predominantly white spaces talking to these teams, bringing them a lot of this information, you know, how you show up in space, sometimes that first impression is also so key to them understanding like, Hey, you know, let's be on board. Let's like, really listen here, I just want to ask you about that, because I experienced that sometimes, especially with regard to a lot of what you're talking about, a lot of what your company does, is to bring people up to speed to understand some of the measures that we can begin to take, and a lot of people are just now really waking up to a lot of this right, you're, you're not the only one. But that understanding that it's like this collectivism that we're really sharing to get to a certain place, because a lot of people are uncomfortable with where this place is, even if the privilege plays for them. Right? Even then it's like, Hey, I don't feel quite comfortable with that. When I know that, you know, my Black brothers and sisters, my Asian brothers, sisters, my Filipino brothers and sisters, my you know, Hispanic brothers, sisters, whatever it is, like when I realized that, hey, others don't have that, you know, right. And, and that'd be the key. I mean, I think about how I show up in space. And so I just want to ask you, because you know, you're bringing this amazing energy, and you're also having to educate folks on Hey, I'm not the expert. I don't have all the answers. But let's figure this out together.
Shayne Crawford
The thing about comfort is making me think of an interaction that I had on a call with a coach. And so typically, I have trained mostly women's coaches and teams and their coaches are mostly white males. And so I'm talking to this white male, and he says what you said, kind of, he's like, yeah, Shanye you know, these things, these conversations. These ideas are very uncomfortable, but I'm learning that I have to be comfortable, being uncomfortable. And even as he said it, and I watched him and I heard him struggle. He looked uncomfortable on camera as a white dude saying this to his white female players, and I am loving that and because of it, I'm at ease. And I say to him, wow, here's the thing. Comfort and discomfort are always present is just now a question of where it's going to rest. discomfort has rested on people like me and we are so good at carrying it that you can't even recognize it as discomfort anymore. I think that now is the time for the discomfort to rest on different shoulders and for the comfort to rest on us. Because I believe that I am, as I just tried to be as comfortable as I can be in the sessions, I had a very good training with regard to that I was invited to a book club meeting for the book white fragility. Okay, so I get on. And there's 90 white ladies on the zoom call. I'm not exaggerating, there's 90 white ladies, and there's me. And I'm like,I bet they're surprised. And I think to myself, Shanye. There's a real opportunity here, because I know what's in that book. And I know that people who are getting to 90 of them to talk about this, but they're serious. So I have an opportunity here, because it should be an all white space, but I'm in here, right? And so as they start to very uncomfortably, maybe they already would have been but maybe it's because my Black face is doing this. As I watched them struggle, I just am smiling. I am encouraging them. And even as I encourage them, it came out easier. And but it was these growth things that no one wants to say. Does that make sense? I don't know if I answered your question.
Trae Holiday
No, you did. Because No, you did. Because you're absolutely right. I think what you just said is like profound, talking about the discomfort shifting from those who have carried it for so long to those who now are experiencing it. And I think it really does bring us all to dislike inane human level of you're absolutely right, that there is this thing that's been, you know, on so many of us. So I love that answer wholeheartedly. And, you know, honestly, I recognize that what you just described, again, being the only one in a lot of these spaces, I gotta ask you, what are some of the things that you have inherently struggled with? to get you to this place of, you know, like, really being a spokesperson for it. And I want to ask you that, like about the struggle piece?
Shayne Crawford
Yeah, I struggle in a lot of ways I struggle in every way. Some days, I would say that the greatest way I struggle as a human is with respect to asking for help. And I think that's because I am laboring to establish myself as some sort of, I don't know, pillar or something, you know. And so if I am trying to be this support, am I allowed to have weakness? Right. So I will just try to do all the things and I do so many things. I had to write it down.
Trae Holiday
Give them to us
Shayne Crawford
even like I I launched my own business, whoo, in the middle of a pandemic. That's crazy. And I have been thinking a lot about Am I doing a good job? Am I successful? I don't know what business ownership looks like, let alone one successful business break. Who knows. But I write every episode, every commercial, I hire every artist, I plan every meeting, I'm on every call. I coordinate with each panelist, I map out video production like I got for this episode, I give the okay on the final edits for the website for the episode for the commercial. I create social media content, I maintain all of our platforms. I'm responsible for our email correspondence, literally every part of the organization is on my shoulders. And then it hurts me a little bit when people say, y'all, you know, cuz I'm like, oh, but it's also my protection. Because it isn't my Black face. It's a company seriously. And if it were my Black face, perhaps I might not have as greater reach. Can't say, can say
Trae Holiday
that's a great answer. Shanye. And you know what? I think that there's a lot of us who understand too, that I think that's where the branding comes in. You know, I get asked a lot to speak at different things. And it wasn't until I think this year, where I was like, Yeah, I need to have a brand or something because they just know me as like me. But yeah, it's actually becomes more than that when you're asked to do that or be in these spaces or lead in these spaces. You know what I'm saying? It ends up being that you know, you got to do more, you got to do more than just what you would do. I'm finding that out in my activism role and like the ways that activism has really grown on me, you know, that starts from this kind of love of my community. Just like for you though. Love of the sport and then you get there and you're like, Whoa, there's some things that need to be fixed here. And you say so. So for you, how is it been? Now, you know, you understand this kind of conversion of sports and activism, right? Because we're talking about you infusing equity there. But I want to talk to you about yourself as an activist, and how you know, you really been leading the charge here, when it comes to some of this work. I mean, now in this modern era, you talked about the shoulders, you stand on the work that was done to get to this point. But again, if that work was done, done, would there be a need for your company? Right. So clearly, there's room here for more work to be done right, in that regard. So that intersection, you know, you know, but yeah, ultimate needs some activists.
Shayne Crawford
Yes, it does. You said that I am leading the charge. And that caused my knees to knock Yes, it did. That's hilarious. And I would say with respect to activism, I am still learning every day, the depth of my activism, I'm going to try to tell you this real quick story. So the first time I ever advocated for myself, I didn't even know that that was a word. I was at McDonald's, and I was about eight years old. And I have a big sister who's the family Bulldog. So when anything is wrong, she's on it. So I got some soggy fries. And I don't eat soggy fries. So I just push them towards her because she's my big sister. And she always takes care of me. But not that day. She pushes them back to me and says, Shanye, you're going to learn? Today is the day that you were going to learn how to take care of yourself. And even as I say, See my knees start to knock just like when you said leading the charge, because what? So I get up and I'm eight, and I'm small, and I walk up to the counter. And I don't even have to use my voice. That's how strong I was. I am scared tears in my eyes. Black cashier woman walks over and looks down at me. Looks at the fries. Says baby - Do you need hot fries? Ah, and it seems like nothing. But it actually was everything. I think that kicked me off in what you've now described as leading the charge. Mm hmm. Because in an instant, I realized I learned that one. I could request what I was deserving of. And I could be granted it. Let's go baby.
Trae Holiday
I love this a great anecdote there Shanye absolutely fantastic. I mean, because you know what, so much. When I look back at my own journey, so much of it was so shaped in my early years, you know, as a young person speaking up for myself, then speaking up for others it like organically, you know, it grew on me. So I understand that. I love that story wholeheartedly. I think it you know, it helps me understand so much more about your energy, I love it. Well, I want to ask you to because you were talking about your history as an educator, and how it actually went beyond your subject matter. And it sounds like you're still educating these teams today. So I just wanted to ask you about that thorough line of you know, what you were just talking about? And that anecdote that you read from a satisfied customer who just said, Wow, right, because I think what you're bringing into those spaces, there's a lot of ideas that people don't actually have context for, and maybe walking away after your sessions, they have so much more context or touch points there. So has that been for you in terms of just like, wow, the education you're bringing to those spaces.
Shayne Crawford
If I were asked to describe myself with three labels any three labels, I would first say student, and then I would say teacher, and then I would say, advocate. And I think that all three of those words are wrapped up in education. To this day, nothing brings me greater joy, satisfaction, then learning, discovering, trying, failing, falling on my face, you know what I'm saying? No brainer. And growing. I think that is what makes me a student. And I think because I'm a student, that's what qualified me in the first place to be a teacher. I think that even though I'm not in the classroom, I never stopped being a teacher. That satisfied customer was my student. So I'll say education is, is me. It's like what I'm composed of. It was where I began. It is how I am Moving forward. And if I do a good job, it will be the destination. Because I think the accumulation of education and understanding is wisdom. You know what I'm saying? It'll be part of the process. And I couldn't imagine any other thing. Taking its place. Education is everything.
Trae Holiday
Yes. You're on fire! That's all I'm gonna say. Before we wrap up today, because it's just been phenomenal. I mean, there is a huge announcement to I gotta get into it all Black tour. Come on. Now I need you gotta tell us about this. Come on, what is going on with that? How do we get information on this, please share it with
Shayne Crawford
Okay, so like the MLB and dtb and COU, The goal is to just get a little more particular, and set up the least of us to win, because that means everybody wins. So it's going to be an all Black tour, all Black players and coaches and observers, the audience will be mixed for sure, I will have a 10 person All Star Black core, who will travel with me to Philly first, and then to the Bay, and then to Seattle for an epic never before seen. All Black ultimate showdown. Uh huh. And even though the game is going to be, like I said, never before seen it is going to be great. The goal is not just to play, because I think there's danger in that, and just showing up playing a game and then patting ourselves on the back for what we were to a community get the crap out of here. So the game is going to be something but more important than the game. And even if COVID should cause it to fail, no problem, then our goal will be just to work alongside a community. In Philly, the focus is criminal justice in the bay renewable energy. And then we'll close the tour with a Youth Advocacy event. Because I think when children of all hues take the lead to put the least of us on a platform, that begins to be the end of the conversation, because kids are clear, they can see it correctly. And adults need that education. Am I right?
Trae Holiday
Oh, my gosh, absolutely. And in that answer, you answered my next question about why people need this. I mean, it's clear, it's clear why people need this. And I think too, for me, I love that there's going to be a stop in CNO, and I'm just hoping that COVID does not disrupt anything for you guys, and that the planning can go off seamlessly, because I think you're absolutely right, this interview in and of itself, meeting you, and connecting with you has really opened my mind about ultimate, I had no idea that it was so big, I had no idea that you know, just even some of my study and preparing for this, it was like, wow, I did not know this was a huge thing. And I think that, again, giving our young folks giving our community members an opportunity to see Black brilliance in something that normally does not uplift Black brilliance in terms of the sport and in terms of the sector in athletics, that this is a great, great way to do that than to also again, sometimes, you know, those that are not always on the TV in the dominant market. A lot of the times we don't know about opportunities until we can see it. So I think that seeing yourself, you know, oh man, that person is like me on the field that really resonates with people so much. We've seen that throughout history right now, after Barack, there's so many more people who like it, I can be president. Again, it's just that like, yes, you can do all the things. And so I think that there's a huge element of that, in terms of like how people can express and experience ultimate on this Black tour. How can our followers and supporters actually support this movement for the all Black tour? How can they buy tickets? Like, what does that look?
Shayne Crawford
Well, tickets are going to be free. My website is being built right now it is going to go live on Friday. That's www.discoverdiversity.org. There are ways to donat cause let's be honest, kind of like with white liberalism. Let's not talk about support. Let's be about support. You know, I'm saying and one more thing about how this is going to shift the culture after color of ultimate. I played in the game and then I went to sit with my family who was a spectator in the stands, and my Black family stayed to watch the game even though it rained and that is remarkable. Not only so they stayed during rain, and then long after the game was done. They continued to animatedly talk about plays that they had seen that impressed them. And I'm thinking to myself, I've been playing for 16 years, I can count on one hand, a number of games y'all have been to this has always been available to you. But why now? Why now? Are you talking about this? The way we've talked about the NBA my whole life, and I'm sitting next to them in the stands, and I look down on the field, for the first time, I had been a player. And I understood, oh, it's exactly what you said at every moment. And in every person, they could see themselves and they couldn't take their eyes off of it. And so they were finally able to see what members of the community have been blessed to be able to see with ease. It is everything and here. I am on this call because of Ultimate Frisbee. Do you realize that? It is everything. It's a golden ticket in my life.
Trae Holiday
Oh, I love it Shanye - just amazing. You're an amazing spirit, amazing soul. I mean, honestly, I'm so elated to learn and to learn more. Actually, you know, I think our teammate Lilly for connecting. I mean, honestly she's like look - There's some stuff around equity and ultimate frisbee and So, I mean, honestly, we were just like, amazing talking to you and been building with you. It's been so phenomenal for me to learn. You know, I love I'm a lifelong learner. And this has been such a learning lesson for me. Is there anything that we haven't covered, you want to make sure our audience hears? Do we get it all laid out?
Shayne Crawford
I think we got it all, I like to say thank you, because this is an incredible opportunity. I can't believe that I get to be here and sit with you and pour my heart out. And I am safe enough to do so too. That is huge. This is a bow on my 2020 seriously, seriously, thank you, thank you.
Trae Holiday
Oh my gosh, the energy that I've been feeling in this interview is just been phenomenal. Shanye, I cannot thank you enough. Thank you for sharing with our audience a little bit about Ultimate Frisbee so that they can learn and actually be educated just like I am today. equity. Again, we've been saying it on this platform and on this podcast, that equity, it needs to be in everything. There's so many sectors of this world that have not thought about their approaches, their processes, their entire industry, with an equitable lens. And so I'm just thankful that you're showcasing to us that, you know, we talk about the major sports all the time, you know, we could talk about, you know, how there's no Black owners and basketball teams and how, you know, football players are getting rumbled down and you know, having these issues with their brains and everything else just making white men you know, more and more money every season, you know, but this right here, because those are like dominant discourse already happening. A lot of people are talking about that. And so I just love that you have really shed some light on Ultimate Frisbee so that we can understand that industry is growing is growing in equity because I feel like I gotta sell so thank you for your work. You know what I mean? We need more and more equity changemakers around this world, and you are definitely one of them. So thank you again for being on Equity Rising with me today.
(music)
Lili Gu
Thanks for listening to Equity Rising. Stay tuned for the special extended Chime In next Thursday. If you’re wondering how you can help us get these ideas out there - it’s simple. Just subscribe to this podcast and tell your friends about us. And you can follow our host Trae Holiday on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And wherever you’re tuning in from, wishing you safety and joy.